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Breeding to a well bred cur?

Discussion in 'APBT History' started by NC, Sep 14, 2009.

  1. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    I need a shovel....
     
  2. che

    che Top Dog

    AGK, there is the saying come from, he would make it but he couldnt !somedogs couldnt finish the scratch but they showed the would and they are called Dead Game. And Some could but they wouldnt . They are the quitters. Not everyone have the eye for this.
     
    AGK likes this.
  3. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. CH Dog

    Breeding to a wellbred cur maybe it is better to bred to a proven dog, as game versus game is what it is all about. Just an idea popping up,LOL Not that a cur can't produce but I 'd walk a different route.
     
  4. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. CH Dog

    Curs never had a change to produce in this neck of the woods,maybe to harsh thinking but it was the route walked.
     
    Sleep, Finito, AGK and 1 other person like this.
  5. ben brockton

    ben brockton CH Dog

    Rule of thumb no. Certain conditions if I like the dog probably would. Too many times seen the right dog in the wrong hands and shit go south. Same with a cold dog imo lower than a cur. I believe performance and production are two different things.
     
    che likes this.
  6. che

    che Top Dog

    Let's say that there is a grandparent horse that is heterozygous for a recessive disease allele. This horse is fine, because the disease doesn't show up unless a horse is homozygous for that recessive allele, right? Even if that heterozygous horse mates with a homozygous dominant horse that doesn't have the disease allele at all, about half of the offspring are going to be heterozygous for that disease allele. But remember, they're fine too, because you don't get the disease unless you are homozygous recessive. The problem happens when two heterozygous horses, like the brother and sister in this family tree, mate. Remember from basic genetics that their offspring have a one in four chance of being homozygous recessive and thus getting the disease. See why inbreeding increases the proportion of homozygotes? You can compare it to outbreeding, which is also shown in this diagram. If a heterozygous horse is outbred, it's very unlikely that its mate will also be heterozygous for the same disease allele. Most likely, that horse from outside the family is normal and homozygous dominant for that particular allele. If that's the case, there's zero chance that their offspring will be homozygous recessive and inherit the disease. Again, this is why we say that outbreeding is healthier for a population.



    Now let me apply this to our dogs ... try inserting the familiar word "cold" instead of the word "disease" in the text above and let's read this text again

    Let's say that there is a grandparent dog that is heterozygous for a recessive "cold" allele. This dog is fine, because the "cold" doesn't show up unless a dog is homozygous for that recessive allele, right? Even if that heterozygous dog mates with a homozygous dominant dog that doesn't have the "cold" allele at all, about half of the offspring are going to be heterozygous for that "cold" allele. But remember, they're fine too, because you don't get the "cold" unless you are homozygous recessive. The problem happens when two heterozygous dogs, like the brother and sister in this family tree, mate. Remember from basic genetics that their offspring have a one in four chance of being homozygous recessive and thus getting the "cold". See why inbreeding increases the proportion of homozygotes? You can compare it to outbreeding, which is also shown in this diagram. If a heterozygous dog is outbred, it's very unlikely that its mate will also be heterozygous for the same "cold" allele. Most likely, that dog from outside the family is normal and homozygous dominant for that particular allele. If that's the case, there's zero chance that their offspring will be homozygous recessive and inherit the "cold". Usually for this reason, people justify breeding cold dogs. BUT! If its outbred mate will also be heterozygous for the same "cold" allele?!

    people believe that only breeding of W produces W. Illusions quickly disperse after several matings. And we think what the hell did I do wrong? No, no, we did everything right, but this damned genetics, will do everything according to its own laws ... Another example, people breed 'L' and get good dogs. Some even breed Cold dogs and also get good results. So what the hell is going on? Look, let's say the Game is encoded by a certain gene, let's call it 'G' ... And let's call the cold gene 'g' ... G - Dominant, g - recessive...The dog receives one copy of gene (allele) from the mother, another from the father. So if your dog got from parents:

    GG is pure dog, homozygous for the Game (i.e., two identical copies).This dog will give only Game copies of the gene;

    Gg - game dog, but one copy Game, another Cold, it is a dog carrier. The game itself, but a cold copy can be passed to offspring.

    gg - two cold copies. This dog is Pure cold and is also homozygous (both copies are the same), but she is homozygous for cold genes. Always gives to All ofsprings a cold copy of the gene. Now you know why cold and curs are still born from winners.

    You can also analyze Mouth, Abilities, etc.


    To make it clearer ... When we say this dog is Game or DG and for this reason we breed it, we count on luck in any case. Because this dog is a game only phenotypically, but genetically we do not know it is pure (GG) or heterozygous (Gg) ... the same applies to any other qualities (traits).

    I would like to say after knowing this all I would still use my dogs from from familly who are consistently producing winners , producers. This is all about analyze. Don't ever go blind on a dog just because he is coming from
    A champioen or from a blood you like.
    Go on dogs that are coming from the familly in that blood they are producing winners and producers.
     
    kiwidogman likes this.
  7. che

    che Top Dog

     
  8. che

    che Top Dog


    Here is no place for curs. Everyone should be like this
     
    Sleep likes this.
  9. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I will play the other side of the fence just to prolong the beating of the dead horse. LOL I like the horse analogy but the disease to game cur comparison, for me, it a bit off. If you break a bone or have a cancerous tumor there are certain medical procedures that can be completed to prove/show there is a broken bone or a tumor present. Nu such equipment nor means available in the search of gameness or cur.

    In horses you get one foal per breeding. In dogs you get multiple pups per litter. I believe a dog is nothing more than the average of his immediate family. My Red Boy dogs for the most part have no real connection to Red Boy himself, yet I picked out what I consider Red Boy traits the few times I make a breeding.

    Just for easy numbers, let's say a litter of 10 had 9 truly game dogs and 1 cur. Odds are the family is high percentage game. Odds are if bred , the cur dog will be as successful as his litter mates as they were pretty much made the same.

    I think it has been proven time and time again but it does not give us the warm fuzzies to actually make it happen. Tons of great dogs come from known curs.

    Mountain Man's Bandit stood on all fours, looking. Yet he produced Two Eyes who most think would have taken his own death trying to make his next scratch. He, in turn, threw a number of game dogs, actually enough game-winning dogs to be ROM.

    That is just one example, yet there are many.

    Personally I would not do it, not so much because it has become taboo, but more so that I don't think I could do a good job getting a game dog from two dogs out of the proverbial 'dead game' category. Just not my cup of tea.



    I
     
  10. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. CH Dog

    Good post. It is impossible to bred to a deadgame dog...as he is burried.The deepgame dog comes in the picture to bred to. Not that that is quaranted,as hè maybe produce nothing to brag about. Point is you feed and bred the dogs as you'd like Them to be, your gamedog is maybe another man's cur or Vica versa so some put trust in the blood alone and hope for producing good dogs based on the good ancestors in the pedigree of the cur who is used to produce a litter, as above example quaranted it is not. IMO the odds are better breedingwise if using Proven dogs as it is all about gameness foremost. But can understand the guy who bred to a cur who have proved he can produce. But to each his own, which is good as that makes the competition.
     
  11. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. CH Dog

    A pedigree is like a chain, if it have to many weak links it Will break.
     
    che, patjr, david63 and 3 others like this.
  12. che

    che Top Dog

    Exactly I would not play with my idea breeding. My idea off breeding is breeding game dogs! Not bred game dogs, or cut bred dogs. So I am not a rich man I don't have that space and time I cant afford my time money space to a cur. I always will use the best dogs I can find in my breeding programs. Whic are proven whic Are coming from consistently proven game dogs familly blood whic are producing game, winners and producers. Consistency is the key
     
  13. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Great analogy. And sometimes the weight that needs to be lifted is lighter than the weakest link and the chain in turns looks like a good chain. If people do not go in search of heavy things to pull or lift, they 'know' they have a really nice working chain.

    LOL

    S



     
  14. che

    che Top Dog


    Great. You lightining up many people now.
     
  15. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. CH Dog

    Right. IMO good competition created
     
  16. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. CH Dog

    Good competition created the strongest chains.
     
    che likes this.
  17. che

    che Top Dog

    Years ago, I was talking to a man from Serbia. He was confused, he didn't understeand why his dogs were quitting a lot or he was loosing with his dogs lg.
    Because he was winning at the begin off his carrier. But now he was loosing.After somehours talk he started to telling me what he did before he decided to show his dogs. He was schooling , rolling his dogs with his own dogs. He choosed the best out them and showed them. He didn't know why he was losing that much. For me was clear. His dogs were maybe the best dogs in his eyes he could have at the moment
    but in reality they were average dogs with not much gameness or ability. I told him
    What I thought. He was choosing the best one between two average dogs. Both were not that good but he was choosing the best between them. They couldn't stand the gameness and abilty they faced. He was also breeding them tight. This dogs were loosing also some abilitys. This man ( I will not mention his name) is an great open minded man. He knew what's were happening in his country. Competition was not at same level as before he started with his dogs. Competition was harder and much better . He knew he must do it better. This was destroying him. He woke up from his mistakes just because he couldn't win that any more. He started to do different, he started to cull hard, test hard he started to analyze top breeders around the world he started tl analyze top actief dogmans If the competition was harder he must be harder too. He began traveling to other country's to meet and see the dogs. Now his dogs are Making him Proud. He is one off the best dogmans in serbia now.
     
    Blackpoison and F.W.K. like this.
  18. F.W.K.

    F.W.K. CH Dog

    It is no rocket science IMO although a bunch of folks analyse and talk about it that way from time to time, but that's fine to as anyone is entitled to operate his business as it suit them. Someone can't bake a tasty pie from a turd, not even when he try hard. One way or another he need to go to the groccery store to buy himself the best ingredients as possible. Nothing is written in stone but by using the good stuff your changes of being succesfull in baking the right pie are a lot higher then otherwise. Common horse sense honesty dedication way to go for some old stuborn folks. And some old folks are not honest at all but delivered something good anyway. Yes it is like waddling through a pool of mud which can be fun as well.Salute to the exceptionel one who is able to make chocolate from shit, LOL.
     
    che likes this.
  19. che

    che Top Dog

    @F.W.K

    Yes , you are right, its hard to understand for some. Buying dogs aint gonna make them dogman . You need to have the right eyes for it , you must willing to do everything that needs. Its not that easy. Starting with a good dogs Only Will make his chance better.
    Sometimes a dog can make a man famous just because this dog Is a realy ace one but after this exceptional one you Will hear nothing from him because The dog was good enough to win or produce no matter ... its not because off him. He cant continue finding a dog like him. You dont win that lotery everyday. In other hand you have a man, he got the eyes for it, he make his job homework good. He got famous so his dogs too. But after this man die his dog are not doing very well like they did in his hands. Because he was the only one who were training them breeding them selecting them harder than any one in that business
     
    San Siro likes this.
  20. CopperOFRN

    CopperOFRN Big Dog

    Sounds like a Frisco story to me according to some...
     
    Blackpoison likes this.

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