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can 2 red red noses produce a black nose

Discussion in 'APBT Bloodlines' started by ManiacKennel, Aug 12, 2010.

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  1. oldtymer

    oldtymer Top Dog

    DNA has a shape rather like a corkscrewed ladder. The "rungs" of the ladder are of four different types. The information in DNA comes in how those types are ordered along the molecule, just as the information in Morse code comes in how the dashes and dots are ordered. The information in three adjacent rungs is "read" by a kind of RNA that hooks onto a particular triad of rungs at one end and grabs a particular amino acid at the other. Special triads say "start here" and "end here" and mark off regions of the DNA molecule we call discrete genes. The eventual result is a chain of amino acids that makes up a protein, with each amino acid corresponding to a set of three rungs along the DNA molecule. There are also genes that tell the cell when to turn on or turn off another gene. The proteins produced may be structural or they may be enzymes that facilitate chemical reactions in the body.
    We now know that chromosomes are essentially DNA molecules. In an advanced (eukaryotic) cell, these chromosomes appear as threadlike structures packaged into a more or less central part of the cell, bound by a membrane and called the nucleus. What is more important is that the chromosomes in a body cell are arranged in pairs, one from the father and one from the mother. Further, the code for a particular protein is always on the same place on the same chromosome. This place, or location, is called a locus (plural loci.)
    There are generally a number of slightly different genes that code for forms of the same protein, and fit into the same locus. Each of these genes is called an allele. Each locus, then, will have one allele from the mother and one from the father. How?
    When an animal makes an egg or a sperm cell (gametes, collectively) the cells go through a special kind of division process, resulting in a gamete with only one copy of each chromosome. Unless two genes are very close together on the same chromosome, the selection of which allele winds up in a gamete is strictly random. Thus a dog who has one gene for black pigment and one for brown pigment may produce a gamete which has a gene for black pigment OR for brown pigment. If he's a male, 50% of the sperm cells he produces will be B (black) and 50% will be brown (b).
    When the sperm cell and an egg cell get together, a new cell is created which once again has two of each chromosome in the nucleus. This implies two alleles at each locus (or, in less technical terms, two copies of each gene, one derived from the mother and one from the father) in the offspring. The new cell will divide repeatedly and eventually create an animal ready for birth, the offspring of the two parents. How does this combination of alleles affect the offspring?
    There are several ways alleles can interact. In the example above, we had two alleles, B for black and b for brown. If the animal has two copies of B, it will be black. If it has one copy of B and one of b, it will be just as black. Finally, if it has two copies of b, it will be brown, like a chocolate Labrador. In this case we refer to B as dominant to b and b as recessive to B. True dominance implies that the dog with one B and one b cannot be distinguished from the dog with two B alleles. Now, what happens when two black dogs are bred together?
    We will use a diagram called a Punnett square. For our first few examples, we will stick with the B locus, in which case there are two possibilites for sperm (which we write across the top) and two for eggs (which we write along the left side. Each cell then gets the sum of the alleles in the egg and the sperm. To start out with a very simple case, assume both parents are black not carrying brown, that is, they each have two genes for black. We then have:




    <CENTER><TABLE border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>



    </TD><TD>B



    </TD><TD>B



    </TD></TR><TR><TD>B



    </TD><TD>BB (black)



    </TD><TD>BB (black)



    </TD></TR><TR><TD>B



    </TD><TD>BB (black)



    </TD><TD>BB (black)



    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
    All of the puppies are black if both parents are BB (pure for black.
    Now suppose the sire is pure for black but the dam carries a recessive gene for brown. In this case she can produce either black or brown gametes, so




    <CENTER><TABLE border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>



    </TD><TD>B



    </TD><TD>B



    </TD></TR><TR><TD>B



    </TD><TD>BB (pure for black)



    </TD><TD>BB (pure for black)



    </TD></TR><TR><TD>b



    </TD><TD>Bb (black carrying brown)



    </TD><TD>Bb (black carrying brown)



    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
    This gives appoximately a 50% probability that any given puppy is pure for black, and a 50% probability that it is black carrying brown. All puppies appear black. We can get essentially the same diagram if the sire is black carrying brown and the dam is pure for black. Now suppose both parents are blacks carrying brown:




    <CENTER><TABLE border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>



    </TD><TD>B



    </TD><TD>b



    </TD></TR><TR><TD>B



    </TD><TD>BB (pure for black



    </TD><TD>Bb (black carrying brown)



    </TD></TR><TR><TD>b



    </TD><TD>Bb (black carrying brown)



    </TD><TD>bb (brown)



    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
    This time we get 25% probabilty of pure for black, 50% probability of black carrying brown, and - a possible surprise if you don't realize the brown gene is present in both parents - a 25% probability that a pup will be brown. Note that only way to distinguish the pure for blacks from the blacks carrying brown is test breeding or possibly DNA testing - they all look black.
    Another possible mating would be pure for black with brown:




    <CENTER><TABLE border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>



    </TD><TD>B



    </TD><TD>B



    </TD></TR><TR><TD>b



    </TD><TD>Bb (black carrying brown)



    </TD><TD>Bb (black carrying brown)



    </TD></TR><TR><TD>b



    </TD><TD>Bb (black carrying brown)



    </TD><TD>Bb (black carrying brown)



    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
    In this case, all the puppies will be black carrying brown.
    Suppose one parent is black carrying brown and the other is brown:




    <CENTER><TABLE border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>



    </TD><TD>B



    </TD><TD>b



    </TD></TR><TR><TD>b



    </TD><TD>Bb (black carrying brown)



    </TD><TD>bb (brown)



    </TD></TR><TR><TD>b



    </TD><TD>Bb (black carrying brown)



    </TD><TD>bb (brown)



    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
    In this case, there is a 50% probability that a puppy will be black carrying brown and a 50% probability that it will be brown.
    Finally, look at what happens when brown is bred to brown:




    <CENTER><TABLE border=1><TBODY><TR><TD>



    </TD><TD>b



    </TD><TD>b



    </TD></TR><TR><TD>b



    </TD><TD>bb (brown)



    </TD><TD>bb (brown)



    </TD></TR><TR><TD>b



    </TD><TD>bb (brown)



    </TD><TD>bb (brown)



    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
    Recessive to recessive breeds true - all of the pups will be brown.

    Taken from a paper by Sue Ann Bowling
     
  2. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    Are there no exceptions to the rule?
     
  3. SevenSins

    SevenSins Forget The Dog, Beware Of Owner Administrator

    She definitely carries one recessive brown gene so yes she "could" produce a rednose if the dog she's bred to carries at least one copy. If not, then no.
     
  4. SevenSins

    SevenSins Forget The Dog, Beware Of Owner Administrator

    Nope, not a one. ;)
     
  5. hey i think it can be possible just for instance if i bred a white redbrindle patches red nose to a all black male ima get some blk brindles buckskin blk w white marks no red nose but i inbreed to of the black dog's out this litter and get a red w white marks red brindles blk and redbuckskin white w other color patches ect. ect. why coulden't it happen ask the a.d.b.a
    syke just kidding better not they'll probablly think you running crap but it could and can happen under the right circumstances:eek:

    so yeah i think it can happen but only if it already exsisted in the backround but too get too red nose red dogs out of red lines that only produce red might not happen at all i bred 2 blk nose brindles one blk brindle male to a white w red&blk brindle dam and got 2 red nose redbrindles white marks 1 all black little white spot on chest one redish buckskin blk nose 2 white red patches with color in there eye and the parents dont have color eye's but both these parent's share the same dam who has color eye's one blu and one is red these pupps expresed that gene so it has to be in there to express it self and will skip a gen or 2 but will start to come out in future offspring solid blk x white red brindle put out blk /buckskin blk msk/fawn/blk w whitemrks/blkbrindles redbrindles /white white w blkbrindles / dirtybuckskin/ sable/ all white rednose /white w red&blk brindle white buckskin patches blk eye patch and some come white blazez down face muzzles
     
  6. drz

    drz Big Dog

    No it can't happen. Two red nose dogs CANNOT produce a black pup...ever. No exceptions. In your example you bred two black dogs and got two red puppies. That's entirely different. You can't prove a theory by using an example that shows the exact opposite occurrence.

    Two phenotypical black dogs can carry recessive genes which is what the colour red is. Two Red dogs cannot produce black pups when bred together because neither one has the gene for black. So it's not possible.

    A black dog bred to a red dog can produce pups of either colour because both the recessive and dominant genes are present.
     
  7. peppapig

    peppapig Banned

    i know of a black dog over a buckskin black nose bitch producing half a litter of red noses.i think it all depends if there is a red nose history in the pedigrees lying dormant and then it just pops up.just the same as 2 blacks producing brindles.depends whats behind them.
     
  8. peppapig

    peppapig Banned

    may sound daft here.....but is it not called a throwback??....or something similar...like a distant relatives colourings has came through?:confused::confused:
     
  9. BoogiemanBlood

    BoogiemanBlood Premium Member Premium Member

    This is 100% wrong.

    2 true red nose dogs will NEVER throw a black nose dog.

    That wasn't the OP's question. 2 black nose dogs can throw a red, 2 reds CANNOT throw a black nose dog.
     
  10. peppapig

    peppapig Banned

    ive read the genetics part....but...im still of the thought if it can happen one way it can happen the other.honestly ive personally never seen it in a red noseXred nose....
     
  11. BoogiemanBlood

    BoogiemanBlood Premium Member Premium Member

    Well when you get one you'll be the first one to make history with it happening LOL.

    Either that or you better check the sire of them pups! :p

    Simply put genetics don't lie
     
  12. peppapig

    peppapig Banned

    pmsl....ill not be doing any breeding anytime this century....but for the sake of argument i hope some one gets it done boogie....LOL....:D
     
  13. Valpoboy

    Valpoboy Pup

    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2010
  14. Valpoboy

    Valpoboy Pup

  15. CrazyK9

    CrazyK9 Top Dog

    But that bitch is chocolate so that's genetically different from red and capable of throwing a black.... right? Can someone further explain that?
     
  16. JRSPITS

    JRSPITS Top Dog

    The only exception to the rule is mutation. It is possible for two red nose dogs to produce a black nose dog but it would require a genetic mutation and it is so rare I couldn't give you a statistic. So essentially thru normal conditions it is not genetically possible lol.
     
  17. Padlock

    Padlock Banned

    from my personal experience with ofrn's I've never seen a black nose dog thrown in a litter. but freaks of nature are a certainty,...just look up on you tube,..the African couple that had a blond haired white skinned baby. i will lean with the percentages, and say it's highly unlikely to get a black nosed dog from ofrn strains. i hope the science behind genes backs my theory.
     
  18. SevenSins

    SevenSins Forget The Dog, Beware Of Owner Administrator

    Did you have a male on your yard that had black or blue pigment? Because you'll find if you DNA that black dog back to daddy, someone made an oops. ;)

     
  19. SevenSins

    SevenSins Forget The Dog, Beware Of Owner Administrator

    That's called tyrosinase positive albinism. For the same thing in dogs, go look up "white" Dobermans. Completely different issue.

     
  20. MISSAPBT

    MISSAPBT Top Dog

    What about this
    [​IMG]
     
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