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Ed Crenshaw's Keep

Discussion in 'APBT History' started by corvettedex, Feb 25, 2020.

  1. corvettedex

    corvettedex CH Dog Premium Member

    [/ATTACH] Resized_20160526_082502-1_63245614484147.jpeg Resized_20160717_154739_63299950037839(1).jpeg Resized_20160512_200818-1_63574589262411.jpeg Resized_0526182012b_63393769042848.jpeg Resized_20160723_182405_63326752572050.jpeg A few hounds I have had the honor of owning. I will say this about hand walking them. It puts a bright spot in there Day or Night. Also it Got my fat ass in decent shape as well. ( I'm not talking about Match shape on a National level )
     
    Soze the killer, david63 and oldguy like this.
  2. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Good looking dogs.

    Back to the keep in the original post. For me, it is a lot of work. I think a dog who put in this much time will end up flat/worn out.

    I am not much on pre-keeps per se, but I do switch feeds as much as 8-10 week before work starts. During that time I do work the dog pretty hard one, maybe two days a week. Just enough for him to get winded as I adjust feed.

    When we start work it usually lasts 6 weeks.

    If I totaled it all up and put it in print it would show 16 weeks of keep, but in reality no where near that.

    I wonder if the keep posted is similar to that and after the years it was sort of all bunched together looking like one long keep.

    S
     
    Soze the killer and Holocaust like this.
  3. oldguy

    oldguy CH Dog

    We (me and my old partner) conditioned 2 dogs at the same time and pretty easy if I remember.. I suppose it depends on what you regard as conditioned though?' We had 2 males (46lb and 48lb) and they hated each other, had to locate them so they couldn't see each other it got so bad.. When it came to work, we set up two treadmills faceing each other, put the dogs on the mills and the idiots would've killed themselves sprinting if we had allowed them..

    Almost every day we blew the nonsense clean out of them, took them off and straight on two spring poles, separated by a partition that allowed them to hear each other, but they couldn't see each other working.. They recovered from the mill (in hold) while working the spring pole then I'd walk out one way with a dog, while my partner walked the other to cool down, chill out and have some fun hunting shrews in the long grass.. That was the keep, we never changed anything, just used the dogs natural hatred for each other as the motivator, it never diminished one percent over 6 weeks and they both won rosettes.. Hardly Don Mayfield, but it worked out okay!
     
  4. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Those are the best ones.

    Two people makes a world of difference. Imagine the work and time if you did those two dogs and you were by yourself.

    When my buddy and I were doing things together we could do two as well, then when we went our separate ways, two is a real chore and three can't happen.

    S
     
  5. Sleep

    Sleep Big Dog

    I based my keep off this 1 because I'm very active and in shape so me and my dogs go on a walk routinely in and out of keeps...thats my bonding time...they all kno I'm there with then the whole way talkin and encouraging them along....so wen the time comes ....MY DOGS KNO IM THERE...and im in shape for the match just like he is....hard work and dedication...not alot of that nowadays
     
  6. old goat

    old goat CH Dog

    I know I'm going to disagree on this lol
     
  7. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Which part? or all of it?

    S
     
  8. Sleep

    Sleep Big Dog

    I wouldnt dare try to do 3 at a time...1 or 2 may be fine but 3 at least 2 of them wont be at full potential...cause u wont be at full potential...if u roadwork anyway....I'm in shape but walking 30 miles a day would exhaust me period...wouldn't do my dogs like that like at all never know their full potential...thats my opinion
     
  9. Holocaust

    Holocaust Match dog

    This thread is a good one.... hilarious as far as all the flip flopping but a good one.

    I'll say I agree with my initial post more and more... pick one and run it. Figure out the fuck ups and keep it pushing. Polish your techniques and improve with every effort.

    As far as men and boys and all that mess... men show up and take the win lose or draw like a man. Boys sit around pretending they did that. Easy to talk when no cash and no animals are on the line.
     
  10. Holocaust

    Holocaust Match dog

    To add to that, with experience, dedication etc you will be able to adjust, adapt, and tailor make conditioning per the dog.

    The point of keeps (as slim has said) is a guideline to learn exercises to add to the artillery. Not every dog will take 10 mile of hand walking. Some may hate it but run their poor heart out over a flirt pole. Some will look at you like are a jackass flipping that flirt pole around but run the bearings out of mill over another dog in the room. Some may hang on a spring pole all day and night but wont drag a chain. So on and so forth from the beginning to the end of time.

    Keeps for a dog have to utilize a dogs strong points to over come his weaknesses. Ed didn't know what patches was gonna do all these years later. So to say this keep, cali Jack's, putting a dog on a mill will you smoke 2 and drink a 6er, mayfields, colbys, or your neighbors are how you do or not do things isnt true. If its works for that dog when you go to the show it works
     
  11. Holocaust

    Holocaust Match dog

    "All and all its... uh... just another tool in the shed" - pink slim
     
  12. stickler

    stickler Banned

    Hand walking = active recovery.
    Hand walking won't hurt the dog.
    Is there really dogs who don't like walking ? Does this happen with dogs you raised ?
    How do you pick your dogs ? I mean how is this possible at all ?
    To me it's always hard to blame the dogs for things like that. I always do think it must be the owner's fault.
    I love hand walking. Just for fun, bonding or recovery. It's also meant as a preparation for the (hard) keep.
    Soft paws on a hard running mill is probably not the best choice.
    Did you guys who are saying hw has no benefits at all try hw for hours already ? Did you see for yourself ?
    And I think this is not possible at all, if done correctly. 3 hours of pulling might not be what hand walking is all about, of course.
    It's impossible to overwork a dog with hand walking. We as humans might get tired after walking for hours, but not the dog who is on his way to a show.
    If you can't walk your dog daily for hours because he is tired, then the fault can not be found in the hand walking. It's more probably another part of the keep, like pulling weights or the wrong food. Hand walking can't hurt a dog. Fact.

    I always did a lot of hand walking, just because they deserved it spending time with their master. lol
    I always had happy dogs around me, always eager to please.
    Well, ok, i run straight into a burnout with the way I kept my dogs ... all that hand walking ... lol
    I still kept walking as long as I had dogs.
    Owning dogs to me is no option if I can't walk and work them.
    I could write for hours about the benefits of hand walking ... it's just an emotional thing to me to see that a lot of dogs don't get the life they deserve.
    A win is a win, ok, but to me it's only a real win if the dog is a happy dog at all times.
    But that's of course just my personal philosophy.
    Aaahhh bla bla bla ...
     
  13. Slim and Holocaust are two brilliant dog men who speak beautifully with words. I appreciate their posts and many others here very much. This forum and community is very lucky to them posting here.
     
    palooka likes this.
  14. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Agreed that hand walking can't hurt a dog. I also agree dogs can walk for hours on end and not be hurt or winded. They were built for that.

    My problem with this keep is not so much the hand walking, but the hand walking coupled with the mill work and there is no days set aside for rest.

    There is one blurb that says use common sense and if the dog needs rest, rest the dog. At some point most will agree that common sense is not so common in the dogs. LOL

    It is a good guide but it has times listed with no designated rest days. Most will pick this up and use it to the letter as if it is the gospel. Plus the over all length, for me, is excessive.

    My next issue is when it is listed like this if you go out on Tuesday and the dog is not all that excited about working and it is decided it is a rest day to you pick up on Tuesday, or do you go back to Monday or do you skip to Wednesday since he has rested.

    I am a huge fan of hand walking, especially the dog that is dragging me down the path. I think it can be a vital part of the keep if one chooses to go that route. I do. I even go as far as to pick up a pocket full of rocks tossing them on occasion to get the side drag across the path.

    I am not sure if I implied I had issue with hand walking or I did not see its value because I most certainly see its value.

    DTA's CH. Charlie never seen a mill. US1's CH Angel never seen a mill. Mims Bo (2XW) never seen a mill. Mims Polly (2XW) never seen a mill. US1's/(Garner's) Henry 3XW/1XL never seen a mill.

    These are just a few that we simply wore out tennis shoes and hiking boots.

    Hopefully that clears up what I was trying to say.

    S
     
  15. Holocaust

    Holocaust Match dog

    I dont think anyone said hand walking isn't useful... In fact I think most with a mill use some form of active recovery(walking) in between sets if interval training. Be it by hand, emill, break on the mill.

    Yes I've seen dogs walk a certain time/distance and lay down unwilling to budge... I've seen a dog look at you like a retard while a flirt pole was waved around. One would work herself to death on a spring pole the other would burn a carpet mill to the ground.

    Dogs do have their own personalities.... hell saying that its the owners fault a dog doesnt like hand walking long distances is like blaming an owner for a dog not liking kongs.... it's the personality and likes/dislike of that particular dog.

    I go back to what I said before, if it works its works no one way is the only way, just like no line is the end all be all. If it was that way everyone would do the exact same with the exact same and whole world would be very boring. Also the point of a keep is to use the dogs strong points to over come his weak points with activities they like.
     
    Soze the killer likes this.
  16. stickler

    stickler Banned

    To me hw is pure recovery. Active recovery = rest.
    Forcing the dog dragging weights for 3 hours every day for 12 weeks is, of course, no recovery at all.
    When people ask me how long to walk, then I always say if you think it's enough than walk for another hour.
    Recovery, recovery, recovery ... no rest days needed at all.
    There is also no rest days with Bob L.'s keep.
    Why needs a dog some rest ? Because he got too much work the last day or days, maybe ?
    Hw will bring a dog on his true weight.
    Hw will force the body to burn more fat from the beginning. No need for carbs !
    I think pulling weights (same with spring pole and stuff) is putting some damage on the kidneys.
    Hw is less stress on the kidneys.

    But, of course, YOU NEED A FREE SPINNING MILL to get the full benefits of hw. Or a bike ... or a ball ... or whatever works in this sense.

    Well, this is not new, but have you ever heard about supercompensation ?
    100% - 80% - 70% - 110% (new 100%) something like that. Means that less than 100% is rest. So, there is 2 rest days before the new 100%. Get it ?
    [LESS WORK AND BETTER RESULTS]
    Try this together with active recovery (hw) and see how it works.
    Raising the heart rate is the key. More muscle mass won't help to raise the hr.
    Form follows function ?

    But of course, it won't work without common sense and free conditioning.
    Bob L. explained it very well ... a ch is nothing special ... if the dog w or l can't be shown again.
    I'm pretty impressed by dogs who won 4, 5, 6, 7 or more WITH 1, 2 or more losses in between.
    Or better said I'm impressed by their owners, just because it says and means so much.
    Those guys even picked up (probably to the better dog that day), but saved energy for another day. This is some kind of greatness.
    Of course, I never did it myself. But that should be the main goal, and it is at least to me.
    ... ... ...

    I love all those different personalities, of course. Some don't like this or that, that's ok and we have to deal with this kind of dogs.
    But dogs who don't like going out for a walk ? This is crazy or just a useless dog to me. Free gift or cull.

    I just see it like Bob L., no strength work is needed at all. ... true weight, kidneys, ...

    The absolute opposite to the Mayfield or Barney 5 keep.
    Different type of keeps may also require different type of dogs.
    Well, I'm just a sick guy, and so I prefer dogs with some legs under their body made for walking and running.

    Is there the need for spring pole work ? Of course, I can see the positive aspects of this kind of work.
    But I also don't overlook the negative aspects.

    Talking about conditioning is endless ... and everything was said already.
    Just remember the sdj's and other mags through the 80s and 90s. Bob L. vs Mayfield and Ben C.
    And it's still the same today. LOL
     
  17. Nice thread fellas.
    some real nice points made.

    LOL.reading thats kept me quiet for the last half hour or so.better then a book!(the comments not the keep).
     
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  18. palooka

    palooka Premium Member Premium Member

    most dogs will work better with a training partner
     
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  19. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I like using rest days. I believe rest is just that rest, maybe a short, very short walk to maintain a routine for dumping regularly but that is about it on a rest day. Feeding is adjusted accordingly.

    I like to use as many tools as a dog will allow, I prefer the carpet mill but at times when the dog does not prefer the carpet mill we move on.

    I have not had many that would not walk but two females do come to mind. The Bolio/Two Eyes bitch was trained to walk at the heel position and any time her collar got tight she stopped. Ruined her working career. The Red Boy/Snooty bitch would not do anything. Zero work ethic. Zero desire to do anything. We put her in the water and she truly considered drowning before she decided to swim. The same decision every day we put her in the water. She won 2 on a half ass swim keep. But she had to be crated and driven to the pond. Would not walk.

    I am not a fan of the free mill type keep of Mr. Lemm. But I also cut my teeth on the old school Molly Bee Snooty, rough ass hard mouthed dogs. We conditioned them on their hard charging style. We combined speed and strength type work looking for power. It worked for that set of dogs.

    S
     
  20. palooka

    palooka Premium Member Premium Member

    the rest is as important as the hard work, add good food to those two and really thats all there is too it.
     

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