Genetic traits

and remember that each individual has 256 ancestors each contributing dna/mtdna from 256 ancestors totalling over 20,000 ancestors contributing DNA to one individual.. DNA/mtdna lasts thousands of years.. Dogs, abilities, aren't lost.. People just aren't putting the pieces together right. ...

 

The results you will get depend on many things, one of the biggest is how closely bred are the dogs, the closer or more inbred the more consistent the off-spring will be. But even very inbred dogs still produce dogs with differences. The more traits you are looking for the more complicated and difficult it becomes to breed or achieve it.

The best thing to do is start with the best you can that you can get that meet your requirements also try get animals that are already line bred which would help when breeding to get more consistency in the offspring. if you are more or less a novice then pick fewer traits that are important and list them in what is most important to least important and breed to firstly achieve the most important traits for you and then the lesser ones.

Good luck, hope that is so some help

 

foundation dogs past 4th generation hardly play a part in the future offspring. the dog you have to day might not even be genetically relevant to the later half of the back half of that 256 dogs in that pedigree. "Dogs, abilities, aren't lost" really lol ask folks who have been breeding there own stock for years. it's verry easy to turn a apbt into a german shephard with just a few generation.

 

Try what you think is best just remember you have to feed them so what ever your pockets can handle do it.Jmo

 

Ben,, not so... that is all scientific dna analysis condenced into crayon.. Why do you think you can be a 1/64 american indian/native american and still get amenities? Because you can still pass on traits going back 500-1000yrs.. this is the case for all mammals.. Its how we maintain diversity. I agreed with your post by the way.. Its easy to turn a GSD into a wolf in one - three generations a wolf to an APBT could take you 10yrs to get it all bred out and the same with a GSD and a APBT, its more likely the APBT genes could dominate the GSD faster .. the GSD is routed in European Gray wolf, Black back jackal, and golden jackal.. the source of herding dogs the GSD stock derived from. The reason most dont breed true is cause most arent looking at all the angles.. Look how long its taking the Johnson american bulldogs to work out all their quirks for crossing into the EB. They didnt need to do that; the true bulldog is already alive and well in the APBT. Whether you want to believe it or not that is science and fact in genetics and dna, mammals get their dna from 20,000+ ancestors... This is why traits become "lost" or "pop" out of no where.. Do the math and the punit square work and add that to your own understanding of genetics along with DNA fact of dna/mtdna coding. .. if you have enough dogs you should be able to find what you need in your own stock if not go to something of proven stature and source of your sub strain... this is out you outcross to keep from scatterbreeding so you dont loose traits among the other dogs unseen bad traits.. most people dont see this at all and jump on a winner or grch stud regardless of what kind of genetic slop comes out. People loose the touch themselves because they become blind to their own stock in a variety of ways because most forget we are always learning, there is always something to be learned.

 

my goodness you have a lot to learn my friend. amenities for being " native" has nothing to do with anything. im not going to get into that though. back to the topic the " wolf" comment was said by carver & you need to read between the lines on that one. there's only about a 2% difference between wolf & K9 genetic makeup. the breed of dog is not that important in making the comparison. apbt genetic diversiy as a whole is very small in fact you can trace them back to the regions the wolves came from.words like outcross, inbreed etc go back to cattle farming they'd use at auctions not in laboratories. we don't really " outcross" because these dogs will all go back to common ancestor to some degree. so sure they will all share similar dna with those 20,000 ancestor to a varying degree because there K9. doesn't really matter when you talking individual dogs 5,6,7 etc generation back. you can't breed dogs to themselves that's why over generation they move away from one dog & closer to another dog. do it long enough & the dogs in way back of the ped won't play much of any part in the offspring.i can dig up black widdo or dibo & DNA test any living dog today & those dogs wouldn't have any genetic relevance. this is why we read pedigree from left/right because it's about relevance in the DNA that make up the future offspring.

 

I started in wolf rescue.. and learned a good thing about canine genetics then, I've traced all bulldogs and bandogs of the ancient world and of today.. The material I put is scientific fact that you can refute if you like but your only kidding yourself. Yes.. I pulled all kinds of old bulldogs out of current stock.. even out of dogs I never seen just trusted the ped to be genuine blueprint to the dog while I was going to school for biology and studying genetics.. A's on all and in all areas... I agree with some of what your saying but you seem to thing what Im saying does not apply and its just not so.. Yes.. You get DNA tested to prove ancestry today, if you cannot trace your ancestry already. That has to do with DNA. IF they are scattered in the wrong way you ruin your stock. One of my favorite cow is the Scottish Highland it goes back some 2000yrs.. ITs genetics are stronger than most other cows, The Long horn is a good source of old stock with powerful genetics as well.. Yes The APBT is the Canine in the RAW which is why its good to know a thing or two about wolves before you get into breeding these dogs. I know Im right because I've done it time and time again.. I've bred Alaskan sled dogs and turned them into wolves by breeding backward following ancient traits still in the dogs today. That was my first canine genetic experiement while in wolf rescue I spotted something.. All dogs are mutated wolves in your living room or your yard.. Also the alpha female will pick and choose who she allows the alpha male to breed to; she wont just let any bitch approach or be approached w/out a good asswhippin. Ironically they were females that were already 4 genrations tight of the alpha male, when they were already brother and sister and aunt and nephew; so.. they run off while in heat .. get got by a lobo and bring back genetic diversity as well.. I read right to left to see what is considered lost to most people. Your wrong.. DNA test any dog today with a TRUE DNA test and it shows all the way back to wolf.. Shows any mutations from coyote, or jackal influx .. they still DNA test wolves for coyote hybridizations and domestic dog muation markers. You can believe what you want I reckon, but this is fact, which just underlines your original thoughts on mendel. Because of DNA testing the world of origin can be tested an printed on paper.

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/94/1/81.short

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/226936.pdf

http://www.gep-isfg.org/documentos/GEP%20mtDNA%20Canis%20familiares.%20FSI%20Genet%202009.pdf

DNA can be tainted from the immediate 4 and often times is tainted from a dormant gene pushed to the surface and then kept and harbored over other genes more sought after because of what was selected to contribute to the breeding program. Your right that the APBT gene pool is tighter than most other breeds. Your talking to me like I dont understand something I got that about 10yrs back. We learn more about DNA and everything else as time goes by. In general I've been able to help people from sled dogs to bulldogs directing them on how they should breed themselves out of a corner or refresh in old genetics so that its not an outcross.. Theyve used the term outcross in dogs since 1900.. A DNA test today will show strong mutations under DIBO as well as PADDY and COLBY is the most genetically strong stock today. I've been able to lock in genetic traits by doing a scatter and using a common ancestor in the back 5-7 .. I've produced old world long legged bulldogs .. I've produced 28lbs bulldogs.. all from following the guidelines I figure out through the punit, math, and assessing the dogs and they're ancestors if possible. All in which are working dogs to the fullest extreme of legal boundaries. Most dogs come from asian wolves, with some eurpoean greay wolf, and new world dogs by way of grey timber wolves.

Yes the the immediate 4 hold power.. but never underestimate the genetic coding they offer and hold.. if your breedin the same mutation into the same mutation your not doing much if you don't understand how DNA and genetic diversity works.

Like I said.. A wolf to a gsd will produce a wolfdog faster than a wolf to an APBT .. and Yes I've seen em all. Breed an APBT to an GSD and the APBT Dna is stronger and easier to push the GSD out HOWEVER the mutated genetic code will always be there.

 

the fact that DNA mutates only strengthens my case. those mutations just move farther and farther away from the original. the simple fact that you read a pedigrees from right to left says it all. you show me a dibo dog walking today.

 

No one is breeding for dibo.. but Mayday was pretty close, barracuda even closer.. Some dogs off Hank are pretty close, and I seen a colby/mayfield dog that looked just like dibo a size smaller; put the right pieces together and you will find one. read those e books.. .. your confusing yourself... Black is the oldest human genetic coding and all others are mutations however black dominates all other human mutations in a 50/50 also pushes recessive traits like kinky curly irish red hair that looks like velcro in isolated regions.. however all are dominated by the source in which they came.. Just like all dogs are dominated by wolf.. except APBT you'll see some crazy monster looking dogs with long wire hair all boxy and strong lookin like a lycan.. LOL from there a world of diversity.. Breed a wolf to a GSD or Sled dog.. bam wolf in no time.. artifically fertilize a wolf with chihuahua and you'll have a miniture wolf in no time, chihuahuas are more closely related to coyotes ... FYI.. The genetic coding in the APBT is very STRONG however they are founded by just a handfull of dogs or a couple of strains and all others are substrains.. There are lost traits, I reckon, the orginal DDB the fighting dog of gaul went near extinct they used a bullmastiff which came from the dog of gaul to save the DDB which made is slop in comparison to the dog of old and very rarely do old DDB traits surface but it is still there even among the slop..

DNA test a AST or a SBT or a APBT and your going to get the same dog.... It will just show a different arrangement of the very same markers that each other has... as well as mutations... coding is not lost .. its just lost to the person at hand who cannot see to find it. You and I among others; would say they are not the same dog.. DNA Testing says we're wrong.

 

BB going to help you a bit. it only take 2 generation of breeding apbt to change into a german shephard or any other breed you can think of. one of the fastest ways is reading pedigree from right/left & breeding from the back. the other way is not being honest with the dogs up front regardless what the ped reads. breed off the ped instead of the dogs & you'd end up with german shephard in no time. the dna test done today they show the sire/dame not every dog behind them. whip out your calculator or any other device you want because you ain't going to know what individual dog get the genes. like you said there's 256 dogs in a 7 generation pedigree you'd need to test each dog itself to determine the % of genes. that's not going to happen anytime soon. being the gene pool is small why wouldn't dibo be found in there? but good luck finding that dog because i doubt anyone alive even know his true breeding. and prove it without a doubt.

 

Im talkin a REAL dna test like used to distinguish DNA traits in wolves.. not the simple paternity test people call DNA tests, those are garbage.. Remeber I started as a canine behavior specialist and vet tech in wolf rescue, then for the SPCA.. I've compared and proved genetic manipulation can be washed out through original source.. NO the GSD is weaker genetically than the APBT; also seen this tested, as well as APBT and wolf crosses. I've rescued all sorts of wolf crossed dogs for 10yrs or so and wolves, studying canine genetics before I ever bred a dog one. Then I went to school for biology.. those with masters in biology know what Im saying here, I thought to simplify it and throw in some e books of scientific standing but those who can see will see.. those who can hear will hear.. all others are lost until they are found. What your saying holds water; but is not entirely accurate which is why I threw in the diversity bit. Every breeder should know that one individual get DNA/mtDna from 20,000+ ancestors and the coding may be 50/50 sire and dam but they are 100% genetic coding from the 256 ancestors squared on top and bottom.. Thats is a WORLD of diversity, which is why some old timers would wind it up tight and outcross to the dog that sire their original stock or the closest to it. Keep on doin what you think works for you.. when you have one pop up you can't explain then you'll know as well as losing traits. IF its in your 7 gen.. its not lost. Just hard to find. Patience isnt just waiting .. its knowing when to act and with what.

 

post a real dna test on these dogs foundation. please because i'd love to analyse that data. im going to leave the wolf reference out from now on because you don't understand what it means. 25 years breeding my own dogs so i can't really talk about wolves,husky & luckily no german shephards. sure the offspring get 50/50 hell i've had debates on this fourm about it lol but the distribution of thoes genes are going to verry & change over time going back to your mutation comment. foundation if i get something out of my dogs that i cant explain that means i have failed myself as a breeder of these dogs.

 

you've already failed yourself if you believe there is nothing more for you to learn... and wolf is the source of all dog which is the source of my canine dna education in its foundation working and operating in wolf rescue and rehabilitating and rehoming those individuals. They DNA test wolves to find out if there is any coyote or dog dna markers anywhere in the strand. I dont find many areas where I dont agree with you, they do vary and change from not only time but individual; I agree with most of what your saying now.. There will always be revelations there is no cap to forethought or afterthought. I caught the fever and understand genetics better than most .. to me.. the first 4 is a given but to see what is in the heart of those traits you have to look behind the 4.. The real shite of it is that we're both so close to saying the same thing in different languages. Its simple: do not underestimate the genetic placement of traits both pheno and geno behind the 4. I've seen it all ... Theres not going to be much people can show me or teach me when it comes to wolves and canine genetics; that I dont already know, there is new knowledge out there and scientific data that needs to be realized. There might be a few things about bulldogs in general I could pick up from you... DNA and mtdna is not it. However when I do learn something its from one of my elders peers, as usual I always read and ponder what you add or agree with in my head and roll on. Keep on rocking it out and remember we practice perfection but we are never perfect.... Everything I posted is scientific fact; that cannot be disputed scientifically.. BB I used to keep those DNA sheets and used the data analysis in many debates. You want me to find proof and if you read those I posted thoroughly you would have 9/10s of it right there just by understanding. Heres some more clarity.

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/breed-identification-1/

AGAIN... All dogs come up as canis lupis as species.. and on a DNA test ALL dogs directly related to APBTs (SBTs, ASTs, BT, Bostons, AMBld) come up as the same or N/A ..
http://www.purebrednz.com/mars_veterinary_wisdom_%20panel.htm

 

now foundation you know damn well BB didn't say there wasn't anymore learning to be done. maybe i read it wrong but don't believe so. and i understand you study wolves but this is not that. you took a carver quote as literal & ran with it to parts unknown with a lot of typing just to say what is common sense. i know it's hard to not agree with BB on this because im just talking basic genealogy. i love looking past the 4th generation of pedigrees. but understand thoes dogs play little to no role in my dogs today. there's no need to dig around for your old school papers. because you won't find what you think you'll find in them. the links your posting are redundancies because your going left when im taking you right. i don't believe there's ben any real DNA testing on these dogs & that's the reason there's many skeletons in the closet. tracing origin of a specimen is not the same as passing traits in dogs & how that works. apples to orange

 

I took a carver quote? Hardly.. if so where? all of what I put up is scientific fact learned and earned by yours truly......... I found em.. YOu asked.. I provided.. check the links.. Im all to familiar with dna testing of canines .. rooted in dna testing of wolves.. are you catching all this?
on the DNA scale they are all canis lupis and all breed of and predate the APBT come up as genetically the same dog.

 

Foundation, the little problem is that we are talking about different things. Sure it's about genetic and DNA, but it's not just like 1+1=2, it's more like 1+1=1. A dog is made of 100% DNA. 50% from the sire and 50% from the dam. Means also 50% DNA of the male and 50% DNA of the female are lost. Gone ! That's why you can't get black dogs from breeding 2 rednoses. The black is lost already. Gone ! And even if you use your knowledge and your magic breeding program, what's lost stays lost, until you breed it back in again. But no matter what, 50% of the genetic made up of the sire and dam are always lost, so breeding back isn't that simple in real life. And breeding back in gameness is even much harder, to say at least. And that's where we differ. You are talking about the right dogs who fit best into your own situation and your own circumstances. You are mainly talking about hunting dogs. Pack hunting in open fields and in the mountains. There is no space for the term 'pit' in this picture. You may do what you want and what you think works best for you. Call them Bulldogs or old original Bulldogs or whatever, but you better mess up with the 'pit' shit. And I don't think you wanna go deep into the dark woods to check out the truth for yourself or your dogs.
But, hey, who cares.
Good luck !

 

edit:
you better *don't* mess up with the pit shit

 

after all the understanding BB gave you foundation. you still don't get it & stay babbling about nothing. at this point your on the outside looking in. i ain't going to point out the saying from carver because it's plain to see your knowledge is short on the subject. i will leave you with a quote from fast & furious lol. " just because you get to the ring don't mean you can box" redundancies redundancies redundancies

 

WRONG.. Im well versed in genetics and I travel in the deep dark woods all the time.. twisted mtns too! Pack hunt? One or two dogs is what I use.. All my dogs are REAL bulldogs and come from as authentic sources as any. I've talked to some of the best men in the game who helped me along the way with genetics as well as liked what I had to add. YES.. You can get two cant get black noses from two red noses because a HUMAN picked out to breed the too mutated dogs together.. take any one of those red nosed pups and breed it to a uncle or aunt with a black nose or a brother or father.. or any black nose with strong genetics and BAM! your gonna have a good litter of black nosed dogs.. The traits are not lost.. I know red noses come from black noses but black doesnt come from red noses.. Your not telling me anything I dont know.. Bulldog is the term I use almost always unless I have to dumb it down for others. In this convo Im using APBT to distinguish the strain and sub strain of dogs. Of course you can hide in your own stock of mutations but that doesnt change the genetic code of the dog, just one link, and the dog is still canis lupis and still harbors a great deal of black nosed traits. I dont think any of you have read the information I've provided, this is all emotionally rhetoric that has no scientific basis on genetics or in DNA and heredity. Its a lot of junk, some of which I learned 10yrs ago had merrit but didnt have the whole picture... Im talking about genetics, yes I can find what works best for me which are OLD OLD traits; I can also find what will work best for you out of your own stock if you feel you've bred yourself in a corner as long as all your dogs pedigrees are genuine with the dog. You do the math, and the square, and the assessments.. All sorts of old traits are still there. YES if you've isolated yourself into a yard full of alike mutations and do not have an original source before the mutation then TO YOU and your stock YOU are lost in mutations; all you have to do is go back to original source, the coding is still there... if all the dogs are red nosed 4 gen but in a 7 they have a world of black nosed dogs then they are still harboring (mitochondria) mtdna from those dogs... One can lock themselves into mutation but they can also refreshen in original source w/out losing anything and gaining everything. Do not take anything out of context. Dont take my word for it; look at the facts I've presented. DNA and mtdna go back 1000s of years. That means anything you want to find in the APBT strain of bulldog can be found, with the work and patience. The DNA coding of the APBT AST SBT BT starts with wolf like all others but become their own mutations as early as 1000 (the year) close to the Normandy Conquest 1066. Its 2013 minus 1000yrs that 1013 Use the right pieces and everything in a bulldog you want will be there... The DNA in our dogs goes back to the time of Normandy.

I know how to lock traits in with tight breeding practices, with outcrosses, with a scatter.. I know how to pull out all but lost traits, like the old world bulldog.. If that is still there then everything you want is still there, you just have to have your mind and eyes open to it. Its not magic its DNA.. and its lost in translation so to speak more than lost genetically. When it comes to this subject, I know what you know, I know what you think you know, and I know what you dont know. Also I learn as I teach, Im constantly ascending.. BB brought some good facts to the table, I added some new facts that cannot be refuted, scientifically. Its good your passionate about your beliefs, but dont get it twisted. You dont know as much as you think you do, and Im constantly proving myself wrong this is how I learn, I do all the work to disprove my hypothesis or my theory... I turned sled dogs back into wolves, and I pulled out the long legged bulldog thought to be gone. I've produce 30lbs dogs and less from dogs I've never seen and just did the math.. I've turned whopper slop into 30lbs dogs as well back in the early 2000 era... all in which to prove my theories wrong I ended being right.. Now dna testing and science is there to back it as well. Genetic coding that you all are calling lost is just simply laying dormant... Use the right pieces, refreshen in the source of the APBT strain or as near to it as you can get it undisturbed...

I am lucky, thank you.. blessed too!

I've presented everything that can be presented except standing in a lab and looking at the dna results itself.. you get the oxford report, and vet reports... Right back atcha! Good luck.. You know I know what Im doing.. Practicing perfection without ever believing Im perfect..

Blessings you two..