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Genetic traits

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by allaboutpitbull, Jan 6, 2013.

  1. TDK

    TDK CH Dog Staff Member

    Excellent post with excellent rationale. It is factual.
    No one pegged Mayfield as THE ONE who professed breeding back into dogs in one's breedings. The difference in what he professed is that as slim mentioned, those who did and do such, then and now, used their own dogs from their own breedings.. They knew their likelihoods from such "puzzles", as slime puts it. Mayfield was suggesting to people, in the most part, to do so without familiarity with the dogs they were to key upon. Hence, chasing dead dogs. I personally singled him out because of this difference, exactly. And it is a BIG difference.
    This is why I always caution, should schemes of breeding be a topic, to never preconceive what is resultant, and never base it upon anything of which you are unfamiliar. Your likelihoods should always be based on what you KNOW and have seen personally. What you have more "hands-on" experienced. What you have lived through and lived with. In doing so, you can afford to let the dogs tell you which to breed.
    It's unfortunate so many feel we must categorize, brown bag, and label "types" of breedings. A dog/litter is bred however tightly knit it is. We can't see genes. We can only see them manifest as they do.
    Categories often seem to merely fog the issue of breeding schemes and genetic compositions.
    What most call linebred, I look at, primarily focused on which dog may be what I call a "key" dog. How, where, in what way is his or her impact seamed into the composition? What has that impact proven to be? There can be more than one key dog. It can be a nucleus of dogs, including brothers, sisters, half brother-half sister, and so on and so forth. Give that the linebred label if you wish. It's all about impact and contribution to what is resultant, and if you are not familiar with those individuals or even collective entities, your calculations of your likelihoods are shaky at best.
  2. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Another benefit of knowing the dogs is being able to recognize traits regardless of where the dogs end up in a particular pedigree. Just as an example if I bred Redboy to a daughter of Bolio and got three daughters and then did father daughter breedings it could very well be like this. The first daughter is everything Bolio, just like her dad, down to color, phenotype, genotype, a straight Bolio dog trait wise. If I breed this bitch back to her father it is really similar to the original cross because I am breeding the traits, but the paper will say a father daughter inbreeding. If the second daughter is everything Redboy, up one side and down the other and she is bred back to redboy. That is an inbreeding in reality as well as paper. If that third daughter carries half the Bolio traits and Half the redboy traits, on paper it is a father daughter in breeding but in reality it could go either way.
    I know this is a very basic example and it is a lot more to it than this but it is just to point out that types of breedings differ based on the traits of the dogs involved. That is why some dogs that appear to be inbred still perform and have that hybrid vigor, and others seem to show the negative aspects of inbreeding. It really boils down to the dogs and the man (or woman) that knows those dogs. US1
  3. ben brockton

    ben brockton CH Dog

    the "hybrid vigor" is a mutation aka genetic recombination. and that's what your ultimately working towards from inbreeding. not only does it breed true but it's something totally new. not really "preserving the blood" but creating something new out of a small gene pool. the reason folks mess up a good thing is because they don't understand basic principles of genetics. ther use the wrong dogs then breed the wrong dogs & never get it right. even though a fella inbreds there yard don't mean there the dogs get or pass on the right gene. that takes using everything & repeet breeding a lot of the time.
  4. deadgam33

    deadgam33 CH Dog

    Good post tdk.
  5. RohoRex

    RohoRex Pup

    Slim 12 nailed it! The most important trait in a brood dog would be the ability to reproduce its genetic make-up.
  6. flipboy

    flipboy Pup

    one should look at a litter of dogs as individual. time will reveal where the characteristics came from. it has to be the important trait FIRST and foremost before anything else - as previously and clearly pointed out. one should breed for one thing alone. the notion of breeding has always focused on what one saw on the dog and not one's opinion on what to expect on the dog. genetics will explain the make up but work will make a dog. imo "how" we raise these dogs is as important as the selection on breeding.
  7. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I most definitely agree with the last line of the above post. The enviromental factors weigh heavily on a breeding's successes. Don't get me wrong, I do believe the dog is what it is from conception, but getting to that point can be curbed by ignorance. Dog A may be born to complete XXXX, but his owner 'forced him to start' and he shows bad signs and is deemed a cur. ( another topic altogether because i do not think a dog can quit before he actually starts which has been the demise of many a good dog). So this 'how he was raised' factored in and can skew the most perfect breeding. All the right genetic material lines up perfectly, the pup got everything from both parents the breeder was shooting for, the weaknesses of both parents were strengthened and it was going to be the shot heard around the world. Then the 'how he was raised" or better yet "who he was raised by" gets factored in.

    And this is another topic as well, but somewhat similar, I do not believe the keep last 6 or 8 weeks, I believe it starts at 6-8 weeks old. It all factors in. US1
  8. stickler

    stickler Banned

    What a fun watching this conversation. Thanks BB, slim and TDK.
    Real wisdom based on experience.
  9. rebeard

    rebeard Big Dog

    slim you make some valid points that i agree with but its kinda obvoius ,,if you know all the dogs personally youll have a better understaning of them so yea no doubts that helps .unless as you said earlier youve had the dogs a fair few years most wont have such a luxery and then it really comes down to the understanding honesty integrety an motives of the person you got your stock from,if thats been consitant over time its good breeding and will prove it with its consitancy ,your points are valid but not contrary to anything i was saying more goes hand in hand imo as i said its about dog AND pedigree an your talking about the dog part its no use having a great ped and a shit dog or a shit bloodline that threw a great dog we want it all if were gona be breeding with progression i think breeding comes down to refinement what your willing to refine thru will also determine how long it takes to make any reasonable progress in the way you should apply the selection of individuals to every bloodline regardless,, hence the value of starting off with good bred animals i also agree it starts from a young pup you get out what you put in etc
    tdk i hear you reiterate what slim said but i dont know why you give out such misleading info on mayfeild or single him out at all,,he did not suggest for people to breed with unfamilaritry at all why on earth you say that on a public forum is beyond me,, ,you cannot blame mayfield for idiots that jumped to conclusions on things he said or those that are unable to tell when a man is making a point or giving literal breeding advice ,he bred an proved his dogs over many years and was very succesful ,sure its true some people just take what they want to hear from his words to try to make out there pure dogs are great without proving them but dont confuse them with him or his advice on breeding
    i dont find it disapointing at all to use the terms inbreeding line breeding outcrossing either no problem all very simple unless one chooses to overcomplicate it ;but thats easy to see and all about the person not the subject matter,, but i do find your slights on mayfeild a lil disaponiting as i expected better from you but you keep throwing him in your posts for some reason ,don like all of us was not perfect but he was a hell of a dogman with a hell of a yard of dogs that he proved for years yet you talk of him like he was some kinda idiot who got it wrong ,, based on what?? i dont see why you cant make watever points you need to make without shit talking the man don had such a high value for true breeding that he would not even breed to the famous tomestone because he could not varify his breeding at the time, tomestone was one of his alltime favourite dogs an he admired his gameness and hed beaten what people were callin the best dog in the world with him but he didnt give in and breed to him,, and you talk of unfamilarity lol how many can say they made that call,but if you listen to the talk youd think they doing it everyweek lol don was a gamedog breeder not some unfortunate who dont know how his own dogs are bred ,which is very diffrent to most who shit talk him on the subject of breeding,,lifes ironic
  10. TDK

    TDK CH Dog Staff Member

    Well, first of all, I was asked why I mentioned such cultists in my equations, and I answered with what I believe. Now, to say I personally singled out Don is absurd. He, and what he professed later in life is COMMON discussion on chat, and on most boards. To say I alone singled him out in such a subject as this, is unrealistic. The subject contained breeding backward. It would be next to impossible to discuss such a subject without referring to Don. I see no reason for anyone's shorts to climb on that reference. It wasn't made in any way but as my opinion of what he professed in his latter years. I disagree with it. I found it a little awry of ethical. And while I knew Donnie, and have a passel of letters from him in file, not to mention respect who he was in his early/middle years as a dogger, I do disagree with things he professed, as I said, in his latter years. So be it.
    I'm not repeating anyone. I express my own opinions, and if they happen to coincide with another's, that's how it is. I have always given Donnie his dues as to what I thought of him as a dog man in his active years. That is another subject from the one at hand. Two different things. To lump them together and make assumptions as to my thoughts and opinions regarding both is presumptuous and erroneous. Personally, I respected Donnie as much as most. But what he professed in his latter years, I do not agree with. Again, it is confusing and wrong to lump the two together with assumptions. I am, by virtue of a huge number who concur, not alone, btw, nor am I nearly alone as to how many have expressed the same sentiment regarding what he professed in his latter years. Peoples' point of illustration in order to illuminate a point, is not, and should not always be taken as disrespect. As always, I meant for my opinions to be poignant regarding the subject. As I said. I knew Donnie. And as I said, I respected him as a dog man. I disagree with what he professed in his latter days, and I stated so, as I do believe in what I stated in my posts, as to THE SUBJECT AT HAND. No need to add to it or assume regarding an entirely different subject. That's putting words in another's mouth. I see no need for that. Thanks.
  11. rebeard

    rebeard Big Dog

    tdk if you feel I put words in your mouth then I apologise as it that was not my intention or necessary ,,let the subject at hand roll on ,,,
  12. TDK

    TDK CH Dog Staff Member

    Cordial, and I cordially accept. Misunderstandings of words from a keyboard happen. We're good, and thanks, Red.
  13. young muscle

    young muscle Big Dog

    I'm enjoying this thread it has diverse insight on the process of thorough breeding, but I hope the Mayfield people don't take TDK reference as a insult, and mess this thread off.
    Thanks for the game y'all are giving away for free.
  14. flipboy

    flipboy Pup

    a great point.

    there was a man i met about 3-4 yrs ago. he test 'em dogs at 18mos, 45 so on. i asked him why are you doin that? he answered, because they're suppose to. his answer have a lot of depth when i started asking some more.. i realized then that this man has been making his own dogs - just like anyone who is serious about this breed. he said he has tradition. i didn't realize word T first until i was schooled politely by the stories. he kept them dogs for one reason only. and his uncle before him. he is 8+ y/o. i asked one important question that is lurking in my head most of the time. i told him "if you breed the right dogs how come you still get majority of bad ones?" He answered, "it's because of how you raise them" - i wont mention about how he laugh his ass off when i mentioned the 4th gen dogs.. the stories just aint true. he mentioned some good dogs that was beaten by average dogs and how important breeding the right dogs. some years ago, he was beaten by a good friend's ch. he went back and beat the dog. the dog that have won won, i think 2 more (ch) and later was put to sleep. my jaw dropped and i asked why, he said her siblings are far better dogs than her. in the end of the day, the simplest conclusion is always that matters. breed the best dog and raise them the right way. his right way as he mentioned is the old timers way.

    i also believe that the keep starts at 6-8 months. i just wish i could find the time to work them right and true.
  15. In The Game

    In The Game Big Dog

    Hey bro ive been breeding american pitbulls for over 26 years and even till this day i will never forget what a true dogman had told me he said a dog is a dog and you will never know how many shows they got in them he said they all have a number . When i breed i try to breed the 2 of the tightest bloodines with no outcrosses what so ever i go back and forth keeping that real tight then go to something outside the box that bred real tight and cross my fingers and hold my nut sack lolololoolol . For example i have chinaman did a couple son mom fatherndaughter then took it to a tight red devil redboy bitch pups on fire . Some might not agree but thats what i do .
  16. KnottyBoyNC

    KnottyBoyNC Big Dog

    Sound like a bunch of byb. As in the case of genetics, you can never tell what a dog will become. trial and error. Don't need a paragraph to explain. its that simple.
  17. ben brockton

    ben brockton CH Dog

    if it was really that easy everyone would have great dogs. but that ain't the case in the real world. " trial & error" is just another was of saying throw enough shit on the wall & hope something stick.
  18. old goat

    old goat CH Dog

    don't believe everything your told . testing at at 18 months what a fool . and you can't raise pups to be a champion it has to be in them .
  19. ben brockton

    ben brockton CH Dog

    "you can't raise pups to be a champion" sure you can that's called a "man made dog". there's been some shit bred dogs that made rank over the years. there's been dogs brought out the newspaper made rank also. 20min curs beating 15min curs will make rank if there played right. not all ranked dogs walked a hard path to get where they going.and got a certificate to prove it just the same.
  20. dogman2007

    dogman2007 Big Dog

    theres only one way to know and thats to do it fella.

    p.s if you bred mike tyson to his sister then kept a female and bred her back to tyson you should get tyson,but it dont always work like that.your percentages mite be high thou.

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