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Honey badger

Discussion in 'Patterdale Terriers' started by dogman2007, Nov 23, 2010.

  1. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog



    Right on NGK.. LOL - This thread is really getting down to business now!
     
    david63 likes this.
  2. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog


    Wow - Very well put aswell!
     
  3. david63

    david63 CH Dog

    I believe gameness was created by humans to.
     
  4. jacko

    jacko CH Dog

    i dont think that gameness can be created. it must have been observed and then preserved.
     
  5. Mr.Revolution

    Mr.Revolution CH Dog

    gameness wasnt created it was selected for.Theres a diff.All domesticated dogs stem from the grey wolf so all traits would have to had been in them somewhere.There r those rare wild animals that dont show fear or retreat.They call them prob or rouge animals.
     
  6. david63

    david63 CH Dog

    I believe gameness was created by humans to by selective breeding.
     
  7. NGK

    NGK Top Dog

    So that being said you could breed snakes to fly if you had a few hundred years? Please expand as now you have sparked my interest.

    NGK
     
  8. NGK

    NGK Top Dog

    Let me add that your basis for argument is the "THEORY of evolution of the K9 species" so really there is no scientific certainty :) (key word theory)

    NGK
     
  9. NGK

    NGK Top Dog

    "vague convoluted answers that dance around getting to the point despite the fact that the very thing I initially querried you about was something that you wrote as though you were absolutley certain about it"

    Was this to Vague for you babedulce? The first 2 sentences...

    NGK
     
  10. babedulce

    babedulce Big Dog

    So then we are in agreement that what you stated is at best a theory and at worst conjecture

    "Let's start with the APBT, any trait that is found in any animal on earth had to be there to begin with for it to be present now. Man has surely increased the amount of game animals with selective breeding but man in no way "Created Gameness" in them."



    This statement is all I was initially interested in. So let me rehash and maybe it will be clear to you what my purpose in asking what I asked was. The way you stated it, you make it seem like fact and the only facts from the observable material world are produced through the scientific method, hence my insistence that you back what you claimed with some semblence scientifec certainty. I proceeded to ask you a series of questions that you never directly answered, the first of which is that following from your statement one could infer that the grey wolf is the possesor of this gameness trait, and you stated that grey wolfs are curs making it seem like definitely wolves are not the source of this genetic trait we are discussing, gameness. In my mind following the rules of logic if you charge that wolves are curs, and you dont clearly state that wolves are or are not the possesors of this gene, I ask you again are they or arent they, and you answer that wolves are not the only source of domestic dog genetic make up, so again I ask what is this elusive source, what canid capable of interbreeding with the wolf could be the source of this gameness trait, and again no answer. So what are we left with here? We have to have faith in you and believe that the wolf is not the source of the gameness trait but that some related subspecies is, one that you cannot name. Either that or man did create the gameness trait as a result of a nonleathal genetic mutation obtained maybe perchance and isolated so that it consistently expressed itself in what is the APBT.

    You cant have it both ways NGK either wolves posses the trait or they dont, and if they dont there has to be some evidence that points to another source, and if that is not the case then one must come to grips with the posibility that gameness was created by humans. It is one of the three and you from my careful consideration of your writting seem to believe that it is found in another contributor to the K9 genetic make up and I am still asking what alive now or already extinct wof relative do you believe was the contributor of the gameness trait that was isolated in APBTs?
     
  11. RRL

    RRL Top Dog

    This thread is AWESOME!!!
     
  12. NGK

    NGK Top Dog

    So lets look at it deeper then,

    DNA from eastern Canadian wolves, gray wolves (Canis lupus) from other areas of North America, coyotes (Canis latrans), and red wolves (Canis rufus) were compared. The results indicate that (1) the eastern Canadian wolf is not a gray wolf, (2) the eastern Canadian wolf and the red wolf are very closely related, and (3) the eastern North American wolves are more closely related to the coyote than to the gray wolf. There was a branching 1 - 2 million years ago from a common ancestor of gray wolves, the eastern North American wolves, and coyote. One of the branches migrated to Eurasia and there gave rise to the gray wolf. The other branch remained in North America and 150,000 - 300,000 years ago branched into the ancestor of the eastern North American wolves and the coyote.

    This information is in stark contrast to the "All dogs come from grey wolves theory"

    We have to continue scientific exploration daily to realize the truth of what we all think we know about the world. New species are found daily of all kinds and new discovery's lead us to believe new theory's. I look at everything with an open mind and always leave a window open for new information to show itself through, as it stands right now it is my belief that there was an outside source for K9 genetics and the above information supports that to some degree. If there is DNA proof that the easter Canadian Wolves are NOT related to the grey wolf then there must also be new discoveries that lay ahead in science that will open up new ideas and new studies. That being said I can not say with 100% certainty that the trait of gameness did or didn't come from the the ancestors of the grey wolf, the grey wolf or an outside source of K9 Genetics yet to be discovered. I stand by my own beliefs and won't change them to appease anyone else and will continue to sit on the fence where the view of both sides is clear rather than jumping onto one side or the other where I can only see a wall and a close minded opinion thats unable to sway with new scientific discoveries.

    NGK
     
  13. babedulce

    babedulce Big Dog

    Ok, NGK, after this little session of "pulling teeth" I get something that resembles a specific defense of your statement.

    Now on a comparative basis would you say that any of these possible candidates that you mentioned exhibit a behavior very different from that of a great wolf, so much so that it convices you that the gameness trait was housed within its distanct predecessors? I ask this because, from my understanding of the wolf species this currish behavior that you attributed to grey wolf, is also present in these other greywolf relatives. If you have something to offer that refutes my understanding of the behavior of the species as a whole, I welcome it.
     
  14. zohan

    zohan Pup


    if you dont know what the word theory means then dont use it.
     
  15. babedulce

    babedulce Big Dog

    So let me get this straight, you are a self-proclaimed paragon of open mindness, yet your mind is closed to the possibility that humans can be directly responsible for the gameness trait? Again let me refer to the statement in which you, withot leaving the possibility for humans to be responsible for this trait, directly establish that humans are not responsible for this trait. Here is the statement again, so that you may not calim that I am twsting your words, or putting words in your mouth.

    "Let's start with the APBT, any trait that is found in any animal on earth had to be there to begin with for it to be present now. Man has surely increased the amount of game animals with selective breeding but man in no way "Created Gameness" in them."

    Now if you have somekind of grasp on genetics you will undestand that those who have contributed to its field of study accept that non-lethal mutations as a result of genetic engineering are a realistic posibility, and that selective breeding is genetic engineering at its most basic level, so it is possible for humans to have had a direct responsibility for the advent of this trait in the APBT. Since this is a possibility, are you willing to be open minded to it? If so then your initial claim is without merit. So what are you, open minded or are you so entrenched in your belief that you have just contradicted yourself by standing true to your statement that humans in no way created gameness even though you have no convincing evidence that you can present other than leaping to a conclusion drawn from generalized genetic principles?
     
  16. NGK

    NGK Top Dog

    That is a typical answer from a typical person with no real basis for argument babedulce, you made assumptions, then concluded what you wanted to conclude before you even wrote this...

    Like when your talking to someone and they are thinking about what to say next rather than listening and makeing an educated argument in their head, they find that they are already 3 steps behind because they were so busy thinking, that they forgot to listen.

    Agree to disagree?

    NGK
     
  17. NGK

    NGK Top Dog

    Food for thought, To breed a trait it must show itself to the breeder for the breeder to first see the trait. After the trait has been seen it can be isolated and refined through breeding. Who was the first person to see the trait of gameness? Where did it come from?

    Simple sells

    NGK
     
  18. NGK

    NGK Top Dog

    A theory must be proven to be realized, anything based on theory remains there until proven.

    What is your definition of a theory?

    NGK
     
  19. babedulce

    babedulce Big Dog

    My friend, I can come at you from all angles with respect to your gameness trait claim, I was just moving into another issue with you because you are trying to make yourself seemlike an "open-minded" individual and my statements above are how easily I deconstructed that little claim of yours for you.

    As far as agreeing to disagree, sure why not, you are obviously entrenched in your position, a closed minded one at that, with no scientific basis as a foundation for what has turned out to be conjecture on your part. I have not claimed any thing contrary to your claim. I merely was interested in finding out the root of your belief and seeing whether it was based on sound logic and it turns out it isn't. Here is a definition for you, and maybe this might elucidate what I am getting at. This is what I think the statement at the center of this discussion is, nothing more nothing less.

    Conjecture - Inference or judgment based on inconclusive or incomplete evidence; guesswork.
     
  20. NGK

    NGK Top Dog

    The scientific basis for the argument is the fact that Wolves in Eastern Canada were proven (with DNA samples) to not be related to the Grey Wolf, a fact that you refused to acknowledge. The study showed that they did share a common ancestor (both the Grey Wolf [canus lupus] and the Eastern Canadian Wolf) The study also showed that there are 39 variables in genetic species (39 wild wolf breeds) and that some are now extinct or "Appear to be Extinct" in there words. The conclusion of the study was that only a fraction of information has been discovered and there is an ongoing search for the truth of why certain traits that are not found in any known wild species are common in many species of working dogs. That being said the question that you asked me (which I already answered) about the gameness trait coming from the cur Grey Wolf has become redundant at best being that I have shown a flaw in the "all dogs come from grey wolves" arguement.

    Heres a definition for you

    stub·born

    /ˈstʌb ərn/ Show Spelled [stuhb-ern] Show IPA
    adjective 1. unreasonably obstinate; obstinately unmoving: a stubborn child.

    2. fixed or set in purpose or opinion; resolute: a stubborn opponent of foreign aid.

    3. obstinately maintained, as a course of action: a stubborn resistance.

    4. difficult to manage or suppress: a stubborn horse; a stubborn pain.

    5. hard, tough, or stiff, as stone or wood; difficult to shape or work.

    The entire theory of the Grey Wolf is conjecture...

    NGK
     

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