indian bolio/zebo men biters?

I respectfully disagree with you. If a dog is aggressive to ONE man, woman, child...etc, is he a man biter? I think in the term "man biter" is used without much discression, like "game", by the less informed. A dog that is truely HA by a doggers standards in my mind is very rare - and what I mean by that is this dog will be aggressive ALL the time to anyone, period.

If the stories of Bullyson are true as recorded - as point in case, once procured by Bobby Hall, the dog tested him for the alpha role...Bobby Hall took it from him with a shovel. Was Bullyson a man biter - IMO no, he more likely was a very high drive, sharp/hard tempermented, strong willed animal that needed a strong leader.

My point is, a man biter as I believe the doggers describe, bow to no other leader...they will always be aggressive. Hats off to those who can successfully work this kind of animal.

I know in police work of many dogs with the same temperment/behavior seen in Bullyson, they are only handled by the alpha and not exposed to situations where the dog will act out - never handled by someone the dog sees as a subserviant pack member, that would be a recipe for an ass whoopin by that dog - yet these dogs are useful to those that train and handle them in their line of work.

 

Very interesting post... I'm very respectul too, always... but in my point of view no bulldog can recognize aspects of social instincts to see this or that dog or man as alpha leader or omega... bulldogs with that kind of problem are suscetible to recognize traces of simbolic fight and this is so undesirable as a men-biter dog... to some breeders more... a bulldog need to respect the man because HE IS A MAN and not a dog or another animal, never because any different kind of instinct.
Temperament or behavior of a bulldog can't be classified as that, dogs that are agressive against the human kind are always undesirable... doesn't matter who is the handler... a strong adult or a child, there's no difference.

 

And in my point of view a dog is a canine (no matter what breed). Canines are pack animals. This is substantiated by years of research and stiudies. Just because a dog is a Pit Bull does not make him/her immune to his/her speices. All dogs understand and live the pack mentality. It is up to the humans to see, understand and shape the behavior....PERIOD.

 

Again, Bolio I can't speak on as I do not know much about him. But here are some quotes about Bullyson:

"I remember one incident with Bullyson when he was at my place, Jerry Clemmons brought the dog to me to be tested and one day while I was cleaning up around his chain, he tried to bite me. Before he could put his mouth on me I hit him hard with a shovel and knocked him out. After this happened, he never, at my place, tried to bite anyone again ..." - Floyd Boudreaux

It appeared Bullyson remembered the shovel. Read on ...

"When Bobby Hall owned Bully, he was attacked when he walked his run. Bobby had a large mouth shovel in his hand and he went upside Bully's head and put Bully on his backside, then was just able to get out of Bully's run before he came to his feet and came for him again. This occurred numerous times until the last when Bobby put the shovel in one hand and held it beside him and said "Come here Son. Bully, son come to me" and Bully then walked over to Bobby's feet and wagged his tail. Bobby said he stuck out his hand to him and he licked his hand, then Bobby walked over and shoveled up his dung."

Evidentally Bullyson remembered being knocked out w/ a shovel & Bobby Hall was appearanly carrying the shovel in what Bullyson thought was a threatening manner. But once the shovel was held down at his side Bullyson ceased to be aggressive.

However, there is this final account that does seem to lead us that Bullyson had a nasty nature ...

"Anyway this dog (Bullyson) was known on several occassions when someone was moving him in a car & he was loose, to sort of go off his rocker. Despite these problems they often hauled him loose, I suspect b/c it was so hard to get him in a carrying case (crate). On the move from Hall's place in Houston to Carver's place in San Antonio, Mr. Raymond Holt was elected to carry the dog. As usual, Bullyson was carried loose in the car. Raymond told me the only way he could keep Bullyson from jumping on him during the trip was to play w/ his testicles.

Anyway, Maurice got the dog & he was scared to death of him the whole time he had him. I stopped by Maurice's often & I could park my big rig right by his house. I have seen Bullyson jump 2 or 3 times right in into the sky above his cable, opening his mouth & biting the air, making terrible sounds.

At the time Maurice said to me 'You know me & you know how I am when I have a dog in a keep. I like to move my wife into another room & bring the dog in the house w/ me, watch TV w/ him & such & just become the best of friends.' Maurice had the feeling that if he was going to pit w/ a dog, he wanted to be his friend. He often said ' If I'm going to get down on my knees & ask a dog to take a killing for me, I want him to be a friend of mine.' Both he & I had our doubts that Bullyson had any permanent friends."

As for Zebo, here is the dirt on him straight from Old Mountain Man -

"Mr. Hughes said Zebo wouldn’t bother anyone unless they went to shake hands or slap him on the shoulder or something like that, then he would have to grab Zebo quick or someone would get bit. They tell the story of how Mr. Hughes was driving back from a trip and got road weary and sleepy. He pulled over and laid down in the seat of the car to rest, knowing Zebo would protect him while he slept."

It appears from all accounts, Zebo was a protective dog & would only bite if he was protecting either his property of his owners.

But this is JMHO ...

 

Wrong.

If you have yers of dog's study, know that my family bred bulldogs from decades.
The bulldog CAN'T RECOGNIZE SIMBOLIC FIGHTING AND NEITHER HAVE NATURAL SOCIAL INSTINCTS.

End of discussion.

 

I agree.

I never knew a Bullyson dog that was agressive against the human kind... but Zebo dogs... I never saw one that wasn't... I don't know if all of Zebo bulldogs are, I do believe that are not, but I never saw one here in Brazil...

Very nice post, congratulations.:cool:

 

Define simbolic fighting....the pit bull is FAMOUS for its social instincts - the packs are generally made up of canine and HUMANS.

All animals have instincts.

I don't care how long you have been around pit bulls, they are dogs and it is obvious you don't care to see the mountains of behavioral information that is available to the layman reagarding dog behavior...do some homework, then you can START a discussion...

But with what you have brought to this discussion I am not apt to listen to you - a closed mind is a HUGE indicator.

Also read ABKs post again, this time carefully...with every incident she can explain the behavior because she really does know dogs, pit bulls are her specialty...food for thought, or not

Regards

 

Mydogs I think what he is saying is they have lost alot of the stuff most dogs of other breeds do when fighting 1) they have no threat display they rarely raise there hackels they dont growl and bare there teeth 2) they dont snap as warning 3) they have lost the ability to understand submission when a dog rolls over to submit they will continue to fight so what he is saying is they have not the same social skills as other breeds of dogs and they finds pleasure in what they do which most other dogs fight only for territory or to get a better pack position(breeding rights ) so I can agree with him in the sence that they are not pack animals in the sence that you think they are pack animals I would really like to see 7 or 8 gamebred bulldogs growing up together and see the results of that pack even 3or 4 for that matter there is just no way its gonna happen heck Ive seen 4 mo old puppies that would attack an adult dog, another puppy dont matter this has not been an Isolated case either Ive seen it many times so that is not normal pack eddicit n

 

Short

We are violently agreeing - I am saying that the norm "pack" for a game PB is the humans that surround it, not a group of other game bulldogs. If you look at the works of C. Milan you can also see that a PB can be molded into a pack with other dogs, where Ceasar is the alpha, again not the norm (perhaps not a game dog - but perhaps so) but a demonstration of the power and consistancy of pack behavior.

I am saying the zebo/bolio blood lines appear to me to be very will full high drive dogs that require a STRONG human alpha, if not they will take leadership with their humans and that behavior will manifest itself in aggression toward humans, as that dog asserts itself in a leadership role..so what is the behavior at this point true HA or weak human leadership? Why will these type of dogs submit to some humans and not to others? Do you really count the historic accounts of an excited dog in drive taking a run at the handler holding the dog at the "start"? IMO no. That is my only point. But thank you for the clarrification of the gentlemans words, I did not understand what he was saying.

 

You just missed the point...

I NEVER wrote that Pit Bulls don't have instincts. Pit bulls have social instinct with human kind, not to dogs or another animals. You are just trying to show your more-or-less wrong tecnicisms reading what you want, and not what I've wrote.

I think is you that need to do "some homework"... begining by your education, son.

I've joined this forum to discuss, not to be offended by a kid. If you want to prove that I'm wrong take an airplane and come here in my yard.

Ps.: If you didn't payd attention, I'm brazilian not north-american, so english isn't my main language, so if I've posted some that doen'd make sense, wasn't my foul... but I don't believe that was happen.

I will not reply more... you're just wasting my time.. sorry...

Honestly, have a nice day .

 

Exactly...

I think my only possible problem is with the language, you understood well.

Thanks, Short.

 

I am neither your son nor a man, nor a kid for that matter - I do have two kids, 17 and 21 though. I am very open to your difference in opinions. But since I have spent the last two years re-habing my own dog I have spent countless hours and dollars studying this very issue and from what you have said, though the language may be a barrier, I think we have found some common ground. No need to take it personaly. I will be more than happy to listen, I'm just not keen on "take my word for it" without a substantiation of ones position with factual information.

I am not a big advocate for blame, so the difference in perspectives are not a matter of fault to me. It is about sharing information in a free and open forum as educated and intelligent adults.

Regards

 

Then, sorry about the "kid" and the "son"... I didn't wanted to offend you.
Regards to your family.

 

After this discussion with you, my dawgs... a nice respectful private conversation...

I liked that,

Regards my friend.

Now, up to topic.

 

right on tex...i would have looked deeper on why it happened and what constituted it happen before i culled it and then made a healthy decision

 

This is very true. I remember the first time I was in a cull/no cull situtation. I had a bitch who bit someone on the leg. I was terrified she was a man-biter & was going to cull her immediately. However, before I did so I called a good friend of mine who had several more years in the breed than I had to ask her advice. She told me in no way should I cull the dog. Here was why:

The woman was about 100 feet away from the dog. The dog began running toward her as she knew the woman & was coming to her for pets. When the dog was about 20 feet out, the woman bent down, picked up a rolled up newspaper & started toward us in an unusal posture. Once Indigo saw that "stick" in that woman's hand & her different body posture, she shot to her like a rocket, grabbed her pants leg & began shaking it like crazy. When I called her name she released the pant leg, came right back to me & sat in front of me, watching the woman the whole time as she cussed me out!

Now should I have culled my dog? Was she a "man-biter?" Not really. Not if you look at the whole picture. She thought she was protecting herself & her pack from a dangerous person w/ a "stick."

So that gave me food for thought. I almost killed a dog who had no right to really have been killed.

JMHO ...

 

Well I have discussed this issue with two members on this bord about this issue the reason why I started this thread was to see how many people would do it and it looks like half and half on this a couple weeks ago there was a guy on here that wanted advice on a dog bite the story gose that there was somebody doing some house work next door some tools fell in the yard and the guy did not bother to tell them can I go in your yard to get the tools so he just gose in the yard and the owner of the house dose not know that the guy was there so he opens the door to let the dog out to go to the bathroom and bam the dog sees the guy and bites him. So when he wanted advice a lot of people were like cull him he should not of done that put the dog down I believe the dog was just ptotecting the propery his domaine remember this is a house dog not a dog on the chain I believe that there is a major differance between a petbull and a dog on the chain the dog on the chain will protect just his chain space there are a lot of dog men and dog women that has 20+ dogs( iam just esstamateing don't jump on me for this comment I know a lot fo dog men that own lots of dogs)your not going to give each dog the same amount of time so of course the dogs are friendly they want that humane intteraction.know to the petbull or house dog they are not on the chain they get that humane interaction every day so they will protect there yard there chain space being the whole yard.we'll correct me if iam wrong I don't know everything these are my own opions hope to here from people on this thanks in advance.

 

I think if the dog showed enough ability in the box and was a little HA i would still keep it. That dog would probably win me enough money in the box to heal up my arm and whatever else. I think Mr. Hughes did the right thing in keeping zebo because you dont come across to many dogs with the mouth and talent that zebo had.

 

I completely agree with you.

 

People who want to cull "man biters" are most often the ones who simply can't handle a dog of that caliber. A game dog fears no man or beast so there's really no reason they shouldn't bite if threatened or most especially redirected aggression when trying to get to a target. Fact is they're actually scared of these dogs but they like the image of hiding behind them. You don't hear of the old timers euthanizing a good dog unless it's completely unhandleable