INDIANA conformation show

websterz28 · Sep 8, 2010

ricoskennel said: ↑

Lol...
Anybody that knows me personally is gonna laugh at this clowns comment...

Remind you... We were on the same ground, in the same ring!!! All weekend!!
Lmao
we don't do this online gangsta act in NY... So I'm gonna act my age and ignore the educated young gentleman.
Best wishes Web.
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i dont have any problem with you man i was just upset, im sure your good people...i just didnt like the fact that a verry well conditioned hound who acts like a beast who has placed at every single show shes been at... didnt get nada... im happy for you that you won...

i look for different things in a dog than you and obviously so do the judges, it just burnt my ass that a "show" dog who "isnt my cup of tea" would win every class i was in. like i said you bitch is very pretty shes just not what i look for in a dog.

sorry i wasnt more humble, good luck in the ch class

yis
web

ps even if u dont like my dog(or what i say) you would be ill advised to try n jump on sum of this as ive done bjj for 4 years wrestled been to brazil to train and have been offered several thousad to fight. lol but i dont wanna fight, you seem nice i just got pissy that i got smoked by a cold bitch

shadowwolf · Sep 8, 2010

Chill out folks. Everyone has to remember we're paying for a judges opinion. It's an opinion and opinions are like assholes - everyone has one and thinks theirs smells much rosier.

At the end of the day, go home and love your dogs. THAT is what matters the most, not worrying about a $0.20 ribbon and a few bragging rights.

mlmaas · Sep 8, 2010

different strokes for different folks (judges). bitches should be a little longer anyway for a full belly of pups. webster your dog looks good, try again next time.

jumper3202 · Sep 8, 2010

Well said shadowolf, Boogieman good luck n nationals!! Post some pics!!

ricoskennel · Sep 9, 2010

does anyone know the dog count for day 1 and 2...
i forget to ask.

BullDozer · Sep 9, 2010

ricoskennel said: ↑

does anyone know the dog count for day 1 and 2...
i forget to ask.
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Ricoskennel - how many Best of Shows did you win over the weekend?

mikefromMD · Sep 9, 2010

ricoskennel said: ↑

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too fricking funny... i am literally laughing my ass off right now!!!!!!!!!!!

mikefromMD · Sep 9, 2010

Fire&Earth said: ↑

I find it interesting that someone would dare to assume to have knowledge about the animals that one feeds or why they feed them. Especially when they take neither residence in that home nor have they ever stepped foot in their yard. I find it beyond disrespectful to take jabs at someone or their dogs when one hides comfortably behind a screen name yet feels they can throw stones at a very real person and or their dogs. In this day of feds breathing down ppls backs and watching what is written on the net only an absolute moron would openly admit to doing anything remotely illegal with their animals and more so even talking a whisper about it only brings a negative light and more unneeded heat on the entire game. When all is said and done I have been into these dogs longer than a lot of these internet doggers have even been alive, having forgotten more things then most will ever know. I have culled dogs as trash that they would have worshiped as Gods gift and my point isn't to gloat or tout merely to say that I have personally seen the results when the law comes on your yard and slaughters your life's work and the graveyard left behind with nothing left but the chains where your dogs where destroyed on and the anguish in your heart after fighting for the life of your dogs as you watch them getting dragged to their deaths. So I dare you to try to tell the law why you have a yard of bulldogs and no legal reason to own them cause in this world just wanting to it not good enough. The shows, pulls, etc are the only legal reason we have right now to have our dogs and that someone would belittle or put down or mar at someone who chooses to show their dog is outright self destructive, idiotic and disrespectful.

And an fyi being "long" has nothing to do with room for lungs. A dog becomes long when his loin is too long compared to his height. It is encouraged that the RIB cage comes as far back as possible into the loin to allow for room for a dogs lungs. A dog should be as tall at the shoulders as he is long from his sternum to the end of his hip. His body should be square. If a dog is said to be long his loin is too long causing his body to be a rectangle which in turn makes a dog carry extra weight and lose power in his hind end. Tail set has directly to do with the math of a dogs hip angles which as proven in everything from our dogs to even horses has an ideal angle to maximize leverage and pushing power. Conditioning counts towards points but you could also put a yorkie in top pit condition and have him hitting at the end of the leash trying to kill the dog next to him does that mean he should place at an apbt conformation show? This is a dog show, we win ribbons and trophies. Not money, no one dies at the end. This should be about friends, our dogs, good sport and not taken so personally.
As long as we hold on to our pettiness which divides us our enemies of the ar groups will continue to slaughter our dogs.
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Nice M... real nice....very well put... Thanks...

I ain't been on here since before the show...

I have been to well over 10 show weekends this year and do know that for every dog that wins something there is 2 or 3 people bitching and crying... just a fact of the show world or any other world where there is a competition... I try to make it a point to be a gracious loser as well as winner....

I believe the above post sums up alot of what responsible owners feel.

i have hounds that sit on both sides of the fence as far as acting up in the show ring.... and will never know where they truely lie....

regardless

Our G/C I bitch, Diva, took 2 very respectable 3rd place finishes in the loaded CH class,

Our CH Male, Clancy, did not place but showed well and was handled well by a great friend from Illinois, thanks again D.O.

Our pup, Zach (AKA- Honky Tonk) took two 2nd places to his brother (who I might add looks very, very good) and they wanted to play in the ring... was fun...

I've been to many shows and always have a great time with good people... For some reason tho, this weekend will go down as having been a really, really nice time... laughing, cooking, eating, cutting up, competiting, and just a real nice atmoshere out there in Indiana.

Thanks you to the club who worked so hard to make all this possible
Todd and his wife, Stump, Fetty, Rob, the other ladies helping with registration etc. etc. etc. Thanks and God willing, i will make it back again next year! THANK YOU!!!!!!!

benthere · Sep 9, 2010

Fire&Earth said: ↑

So I dare you to try to tell the law why you have a yard of bulldogs and no legal reason to own them cause in this world just wanting to it not good enough. The shows, pulls, etc are the only legal reason we have right now to have our dogs

His body should be square. If a dog is said to be long his loin is too long causing his body to be a rectangle which in turn makes a dog carry extra weight and lose power in his hind end.
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I wasn't going to reply to these comments, but feel the need to. So, I will be as polite as possible.

1. If you think the law/hsus looks favorably on ADBA shows and pulls you are kidding yourself. In the last 5 years two of the biggest dog fighting busts involved two people who were featured on the cover of the Gazette for winning at the Nationals. Plus several ADBA judges have also been busted for dog fighting. I am not suggesting that it is true, but it is a well known fact that the feds, other law enforcement and the HSUS see ADBA events as a cover for dog fighting. One of the first things they do when they raid people is take their ADBA papers as evidence. Plus all the morons using the words 'Show' and 'Pull' as euphemisms for illegal activities certainly don't help things. The best and only protection against the law is not to be doing anything illegal in the first place.

2. Your second comment is one of the main reasons I do not attend dog shows anymore. Your comment about being long bodied perfectly illustrates why adhering to a written standard eventually destroys a working breed. So, by your expalantion of why being long is a fault, Tornado & Queen of Hearts, the two greatest female bulldogs, were both physically flawed. They were both long and I don't think they lost any power because of it. The problem with a hard and fast standard is when you look at reality there are too many exceptions to it. Another example is cow-hocks. An ADBA flaw that a good number of great performance bulldogs had. For working breeds, pretty is as pretty does. There should be something written into the standard so the judge can make exceptions to the rule for technically flawed dogs that are overall more keen, powerful and athletic than their more technically perfect counter parts. Otherwise, slowly but surely the breed becomes a shell of a working dog. It has happened with every other working breed, and those who think the pit bull will be an exception are fooling themselves.

Just some food for thought.

ricoskennel · Sep 9, 2010

anyone know the name of that little bad a$$ bitch that won the cup Sunday???
P's dog...
bad little bitch.

ricoskennel · Sep 9, 2010

benthere said: ↑

I wasn't going to reply to these comments, but feel the need to. So, I will be as polite as possible.

1. If you think the law/hsus looks favorably on ADBA shows and pulls you are kidding yourself. In the last 5 years two of the biggest dog fighting busts involved two people who were featured on the cover of the Gazette for winning at the Nationals. Plus several ADBA judges have also been busted for dog fighting. I am not suggesting that it is true, but it is a well known fact that the feds, other law enforcement and the HSUS see ADBA events as a cover for dog fighting. One of the first things they do when they raid people is take their ADBA papers as evidence. Plus all the morons using the words 'Show' and 'Pull' as euphamisms for illegal activities certainly don't help things. The best and only protection against the law is not to be doing anything illegal in the first place.

2. Your second comment is one of the main reasons I do not attend dog shows anymore. Your comment about being long bodied perfectly illustrates why adhering to a written standard eventually destroys a working breed. So, by your expalantion of why being long is a fault, Tornado & Queen of Hearts, the two greatest female bulldogs, were both physically flawed. They were both long and I don't think they lost any power because of it. The problem with a hard and fast standard is when you look at reality there are too many exceptions to it. Another example is cow-hocks. An ADBA flaw that a good number of great performance bulldogs had. For working breeds, pretty is as pretty does. There should be something written into the standard so the judge can make exceptions to the rule for technically flawed dogs that are overall more keen, powerful and athletic than their more technically perfect counter parts. Otherwise, slowly but surely the breed becomes a shell of a working dog. It has happened with every other working breed, and those who think the pit bull will be an exception are fooling themselves.
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oh $*** !!!!
this page is getting too hot for me... what happened to "dog shows and events"???
i want NO envolvement with the content or authors on this page!!!

TO ANY SUPERIORS READING THIS PAGE:
MY NAME IS RICO, AND I DO NOT OWN ANY AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIERS. I LIVE IN A SMALL TOWN OUTSIDE OF OWENSBORO, KENTUCKY.

benthere · Sep 9, 2010

Relax, I do not do anything illegal and I am not suggesting that anyone in this thread does. I am just stating historical facts as I see them and giving some food for thought.

diva · Sep 9, 2010

ricoskennel said: ↑

oh $*** !!!!
this page is getting too hot for me... what happened to "dog shows and events"???
i want NO envolvement with the content or authors on this page!!!

TO ANY SUPERIORS READING THIS PAGE:
MY NAME IS RICO, AND I DO NOT OWN ANY AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIERS. I LIVE IN A SMALL TOWN OUTSIDE OF OWENSBORO, KENTUCKY.
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LOL A little too late...you already posted your picture and location.

Congratulations to all of those who placed!

Fire&Earth · Sep 9, 2010

benthere said: ↑

I wasn't going to reply to these comments, but feel the need to. So, I will be as polite as possible.

1. If you think the law/hsus looks favorably on ADBA shows and pulls you are kidding yourself. In the last 5 years two of the biggest dog fighting busts involved two people who were featured on the cover of the Gazette for winning at the Nationals. Plus several ADBA judges have also been busted for dog fighting. I am not suggesting that it is true, but it is a well known fact that the feds, other law enforcement and the HSUS see ADBA events as a cover for dog fighting. One of the first things they do when they raid people is take their ADBA papers as evidence. Plus all the morons using the words 'Show' and 'Pull' as euphemisms for illegal activities certainly don't help things. The best and only protection against the law is not to be doing anything illegal in the first place.

2. Your second comment is one of the main reasons I do not attend dog shows anymore. Your comment about being long bodied perfectly illustrates why adhering to a written standard eventually destroys a working breed. So, by your expalantion of why being long is a fault, Tornado & Queen of Hearts, the two greatest female bulldogs, were both physically flawed. They were both long and I don't think they lost any power because of it. The problem with a hard and fast standard is when you look at reality there are too many exceptions to it. Another example is cow-hocks. An ADBA flaw that a good number of great performance bulldogs had. For working breeds, pretty is as pretty does. There should be something written into the standard so the judge can make exceptions to the rule for technically flawed dogs that are overall more keen, powerful and athletic than their more technically perfect counter parts. Otherwise, slowly but surely the breed becomes a shell of a working dog. It has happened with every other working breed, and those who think the pit bull will be an exception are fooling themselves.

Just some food for thought.
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This is a great post as well! I agree with you on your first point 1000% and yes it is a very sad fact that ppl used the show / pull terms etc and yes to everything you said about the bust as yeap we are pretty much screwed. Even a greater point about ppl talking so much smack on the internet. In some situations it can help though to have "show" dogs, for example in NYC if your dog ends up at a shelter, even if thru no fault of your own (say you blacked out walking your dog and emts took you to a hospital and him to the shelter) in ny its the law that any dog coming out of a shelter, even if owned and not stray, he MUST be spay/neutered. The only exception is if you can prove you show that dog, (the adba is an approved show reg). And in truth the shows are just a fun pass time.

Your 2nd point is I think a bit more complicated, as I don’t see it so cut and dry. What I mean is yes you are 1000% right MANY/MOST/ALL, GREAT/GOOD/OKAY pit dogs had conformation faults of all types. If a dog has a serious faults say like bad hocks, what I believe from experience to be true is that the individual dog had sufficient heart and will, that it really didn’t matter if the dog was missing a whole leg – he was going to excel because of what was in his heart, be dammed everything else. I think the problem really stems from purest missing what I believe is the ADBAs point to the standard. Hear me out pls. If in this world it is illegal to test what matters most, what can we do to preserve the “look” of an APBT. When it is taken into account what makes up a successful fighting dog, gameness, wind, wrestling , etc to name a few. Now of all those things the only thing that is tangible is wrestling ability. Meaning you can’t look at a dog on his chain and say he’s game, or bites hard, but you can have an idea as to his wrestling ability based on his conformation. So lets say everything else is equal as far as gameness, conditioning, biting goes, but you have dog A who has a better structure, his angles are ideal to push back, his rib cage is right etc, now dog B has slipped hocks or even just cow hocked. As a contest passes, hrs say, both dogs are very tired, it is a fact that the dog with bad hocks will not be able to hold out as long or push back as long, he will tire faster (again what’s in his heart to continue may be strong and be enough to overcome – we can’t test that). If conditioning is equal a sound dog will out last an unsound one physically. So with everything being equal gameness & conditioning wise, the dog with the sounder body will prevail. That is most of what these shows are about. You had a bunch of dog men get together and look at the old great dogs and say “what do these dogs have in common body wise?” That is where the standard comes from, unlike the UKC or AKC where the person who wrote it had never participated in the game, they only thought what would work based on fantasy. I have seen it said that the old dogs didn’t fit the standard and I can debate that in person with pictures to prove. So yes are we left with only a dog that looks like the way a fighting should, yes, but I have never seen serious show ppl running around claiming their dogs to be anything else but that. So these are a structure contest, not a beauty contest. Do game dogs over come physical faults? ALL the time, but no way to prove it at a show.

ricoskennel · Sep 9, 2010

Ice cream anyone?

benthere · Sep 10, 2010

Thank you for your intelligent and well thought out reply Fire & Earth. I appologize to others if this is not the place for this discussion. I can move it if you would like.

I agree that dog shows can do nothing more than preserve the look of a performance dog, but I also feel that the shows are starting to fail at that. I can see a fissure growing between the show dog type and the working bulldog type. The dogs that are winning at shows today are not the same as the dogs that were winning at shows 15 - 20 years ago. I am not sure if it is even possible to prevent this from happening, but I wish it were.

You are correct that the men who wrote the ADBA conformation standard did an excellent job of it. But, a standard is only as good as the person interpretting it. It seems that often judges cannot see the forest for the trees. Or to put it another way, with working dogs sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. If you add up all the parts sometimes they can all be perfect but the end product just is not impressive. Whereas with other less than perfect dogs the parts all work together and the dog has power & type. Which, by the way, I believe should be the most important things for a bulldog.

II. Overall Appearance 20 points

A. Conforming to breed type

1.

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Should look like an American Pit Bull Terrier from across the ring

[/FONT][/FONT]2. 

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Sturdy, three dimensional. Giving the impression of strength, not slight or frail.

[/FONT][/FONT]3. 

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Appears square, with heavy boned, solid front end with a light and springy back end.

[/FONT][/FONT]4. 

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Should look athletic, not bulky. Musculature should be smooth but defined.

[/FONT][/FONT]5. 

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Presentation of an adult dog should be of a lean, exercised animal showing a hint of rib and backbone (without hipbones

showing) with muscles firm and defined. Clean, glossy coat with short trimmed nails.

The only realistic solution I can think of is to weight the first 3 parts of this section of the standard much higher. If you break it down here Type which is basically #1 is only 4 points and strength and power are about the same if you include them in #2. I also believe that #3 is being neglected in the showing ring and not enough emphasis is being put on big, solid powerful front ends. As I see it the show dogs are becoming too narrow and starting to resemble running dogs more than fighting dogs.

As far as pit dogs overcoming their faults, I think certain faults occur too often for that to be the case. Rocca wrote an article a long time ago about cow hocks and how he felt like they often acted as powerful springs straightening out when the dog drove forward. I tend to agree with this. And this can be proven simply by walking certain cow hocked dogs on a leash. What cow hocks don't do well is go backwards or jump. Being long also tends to occur with more regularity in good females, which might have something to do with extra space for reproductive organs.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings. I just wish more emphasis was being given to power, durability and type and less to angulation and other small technicalities.
[/FONT][/FONT]

farm curs · Sep 10, 2010

benthere said: ↑

Thank you for your intelligent and well thought out reply Fire & Earth. I appologize to others if this is not the place for this discussion. I can move it if you would like.

I agree that dog shows can do nothing more than preserve the look of a performance dog, but I also feel that the shows are starting to fail at that. I can see a fissure growing between the show dog type and the working bulldog type. The dogs that are winning at shows today are not the same as the dogs that were winning at shows 15 - 20 years ago. I am not sure if it is even possible to prevent this from happening, but I wish it were.

You are correct that the men who wrote the ADBA conformation standard did an excellent job of it. But, a standard is only as good as the person interpretting it. It seems that often judges cannot see the forest for the trees. Or to put it another way, with working dogs sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. If you add up all the parts sometimes they can all be perfect but the end product just is not impressive. Whereas with other less than perfect dogs the parts all work together and the dog has power & type. Which, by the way, I believe should be the most important things for a bulldog.

II. Overall Appearance 20 points
A. Conforming to breed type

1.

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Should look like an American Pit Bull Terrier from across the ring [/FONT][/FONT]

2.

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Sturdy, three dimensional. Giving the impression of strength, not slight or frail. [/FONT][/FONT]

3.

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Appears square, with heavy boned, solid front end with a light and springy back end. [/FONT][/FONT]

4.

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Should look athletic, not bulky. Musculature should be smooth but defined. [/FONT][/FONT]

5.

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Presentation of an adult dog should be of a lean, exercised animal showing a hint of rib and backbone (without hipbones [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]showing) with muscles firm and defined. Clean, glossy coat with short trimmed nails. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]The only realistic solution I can think of is to weight the first 3 parts of this section of the standard much higher. If you break it down here Type which is basically #1 is only 4 points and strength and power are about the same if you include them in #2. I also believe that #3 is being neglected in the showing ring and not enough emphasis is being put on big, solid powerful front ends. As I see it the show dogs are becoming too narrow and starting to resemble running dogs more than fighting dogs. [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial]

As far as pit dogs overcoming their faults, I think certain faults occur too often for that to be the case. Rocca wrote an article a long time ago about cow hocks and how he felt like they often acted as powerful springs straightening out when the dog drove forward. I tend to agree with this. And this can be proven simply by walking certain cow hocked dogs on a leash. What cow hocks don't do well is go backwards or jump. Being long also tends to occur with more regularity in good females, which might have something to do with extra space for reproductive organs.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings. I just wish more emphasis was being given to power, durability and type and less to angulation and other small technicalities.
[/FONT][/FONT]
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I've noticed this too.
There are some beautiful dogs but they are so delicate looking:confused:
I have a bitch that is to fine boned for my liking,watching her jump down off bales stacked 8-10 feet high makes me cringe.If she gets kicked by any livestock it's gonna be crunch time.Ouch

chaser71 · Sep 11, 2010

I still think the show was bigger & better when it was in logansport any body else agree ? Or does anybody even remember that long ago ?

mikefromMD · Sep 13, 2010

thanks ben and F & E.... i like the intelligent back and forth...

i also like the fact as mentioned by F & E about the five different things originally looked for in a working dog and how the wrestling ability is the only thing that matters physically, the other four were all mental aspects ... I wish I could post the extended version of the standard where it goes in depth as to the "why" but i do not have a scanner.... anyone able to post that in deptth version...it's the prologue to the standard but i've only seen it in one book that i have... For me, it brings it all together....

Damn... phil got banned again....

ricoskennel · Sep 27, 2010

see u all next year!!!

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INDIANA conformation show

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