Click here
  1. Welcome to Game Dog Forum

    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

    Dismiss Notice

ironhead

Discussion in 'APBT Bloodlines' started by surfercalavera, Sep 26, 2005.

  1. Redboyoutpoorboy

    Redboyoutpoorboy Premium Member Premium Member

    Ironhead was more of a proformer than producer, his production wasn't nothing to write home about
     
  2. Mashamplan

    Mashamplan Big Dog

    And exactly how sure is anyone that his production rate was nothing to write home about. Most old dogmen agreed that carver hung peds on most dogs that left his yard, so if they readily accept that whose to say alot of the good ones werent off ironhead? Dont know either way but its possible. And could be the reason he had the statue made. Not out of guilt but in order to honour the best stud he had. Many said that he papered most as off bullyson because the demand was for bullyson dogs and he was selling what the market wanted and thought they were buying.
     
    david63 likes this.
  3. magnoilaotis

    magnoilaotis Top Dog

    The mystery behind the dogs Carver sold is something that has interested me since I found out Carver hung papers. It makes good debate because most of us are only able to make flimsy guesses based on something somebody told someone else when we were in diapers or not even born. With that said I will give a couple of reasons why I feel Ironhead was not the super stud some think. The first one is the fact that Carver let the dog to be known as Hyde's Satch kill him in a roll. Why would you let the second coming of Dibo be killed by his son? Number two is an old Pit Dog Report that has Stu Fowler, a Ed Crenshaw dog, on the cover. In that same issue Boomerang received his grand championship certificate. The two dogs look uncannily alike. Those two facts along the letters sent to the magazines, while Carver was alive, telling the real breeding behind dogs leads me to believe Ironhead wasn't much of a producer. He was bred out the ass so I am sure he produced some good ones, but more than likely no were near what most people think. If you ever get the chance read some old PBR articles Rushin' Bill wrote. This is were I got my information from and they also have reprints of old articles and pictures that make a whale of a case against the pedigrees and statues we see and hear about. Believe what you will, but the evidence weighs heavily against conventional wisdom. I guess some folks still believe all those black and white dogs Carver sold and bred are inbreed Eli dogs and Crenshaw's Snow had problems breeding while Carver had him. For those that do I have a bridge in NY and a swamp in Florida I will sell you dirt cheap.
     
  4. Mashamplan

    Mashamplan Big Dog

    Like I said I cant say either way. What we do know for sure is that carver's cakes were some of the best of the day even tho he kept the recipes to himself, lol.
     
  5. old goat

    old goat CH Dog

    how close of a Ironhead dog have you seen ?
     
  6. magnoilaotis

    magnoilaotis Top Dog

    I haven't seen anything close Ironhead. Like I said I can only base my opinion on second and third hand information. So please fire one up and enlighten us on the Ironhead dogs you have seen and also tell us how you were present for the breeding, whelping, etc of these dogs. I don't mind being proved wrong.
     
  7. old goat

    old goat CH Dog

    i wasn't watching the breedings so we all can only go on what was written down . but 1 thing i do know is if it was in the ped up close they could
    finish . so now you enlighten me on what you know from dogs up close in the ped because like me you wasn't there either . we can only go by what we known because we wasn't there but you should know what every dog in 4 generations has done . the rest doesn't even matter .
     
  8. magnoilaotis

    magnoilaotis Top Dog

    Thank you for your honest reply. Ironhead is shown to be the sire of Hyde's Satch, but R Hyde let slip in a story about Meanie(Tana) that Satch's sire was not Ironhead, but in fact a dog called Sam. Sam was the sire of Long's Tuffy and littermate sister who's name escapes me at the moment. The Sam X Tana breeding was the one Carver told R Bill was the best he made, because it produced good dogs who could in turn produce good dogs. If you do some looking the Sam/tana breeding it is the force behind some of the noted finishers of modern time. From Art to Chinaman the evidence is there. While we will never know I will stick to my opinion. On another note if you look at those old Mexican dogs off of Stu Fowler and a Carver bitch, the ones that caused the reverence noted in the Ed Crenshaw interview, they look alot like old Boomerang. We will never know, but it makes good food for debate. It is my feeling that the best dogs off old Bullyson and Eli jr were out of the littermate sisters( Tuffy and Baby) who are out of the Sam x Tana breeding. Oh well we will never know, but it makes for good debate.
     
  9. Staub

    Staub Big Dog

    The fact that a lot of old timers hung papers is ridiculous to me, they had good dogs why lie just to make a couple more bucks. Either way thankfully most of them produced good dogs and we still have a wonderful gene pool today to work with. It's just really confusing as a novice when you look back further into pedigrees and try to take into account that some of what you see is false. It's nice to hear some of you that know a little more about the real breedings behind some of these dogs but that is still someone else taking your word for it. Who knows.
     
  10. old goat

    old goat CH Dog

    ronnie told me how satch was bred but i can't remember which male was used . but i do remember we were talking about chocolate soldier and doobie and why they clicked so good . i think satch was a zeke bred dog . boomerang was in mexico for a while so you never know . but now all of the stu fowler stuff doesn't look like the boomerang dogs . i've seen a lot of both and they have separate looks . but yes the miss spike blood crossed very good with the ed crenshaw blood . and the miss spike dogs have a different style to me than the stu fowler dogs .
     
  11. magnoilaotis

    magnoilaotis Top Dog

    Can't argue with that old goat. Never knew boomerang spent time in Mexico. Learn something new everyday.
     
  12. nolimit

    nolimit Pup

    Satchmo is SamxTana
     
  13. pichote

    pichote Pup

    Boomerang born on E Morfin house...
     
  14. redrumdog

    redrumdog Top Dog

    A friend of mine told me he was standing next to Carver when a young man asked him why u sell so many Bullyson dogs Mr.Carver. Carver responded because that is what sells son. Everyone knows Carver hung papers on dogs because he didn't want to give anyone his secrets. So many bloodlines tainted because of false papers. I personally think nobody can say for sure how any dogs where bred from Carver because Carver is dead and there is no way to prove anything. Just some good stories.It does make for some fun reading at times.
     
    david63 likes this.
  15. old goat

    old goat CH Dog

    i see someone else knows .
     
  16. shaman

    shaman Big Dog

    lol ........
     
  17. pichote

    pichote Pup

  18. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    The man in the Virgin Islands who bought Ironhead and his daughters from Carver said the ACE IBM looked identical to Ironhead down to the widows peak...
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [25124] :: CARVER'S IRONHEAD
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1139] :: DOUCET'S CRACKER
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [1141] :: MALIK'S IBM
    Both champions Honey and Leona brood matrons thru this widow peak trait that was seen in Ironhead dogs from the V.Islands...
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [14219] :: J. ROGERS' H-BOMB
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [14212] :: ED WEAVER'S JOHNNY
    Ironheads uncle champion Cracker alo passed this trait...
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [53] :: CARVER'S CRACKER (3XW)(1XL)
    Boomerangs pic looks alot like Carvers Pistol...
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [364059] :: DAVIS' BOOMERANG.
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [5] :: <B>CARVER'S PISTOL (2XW)
    Snooty pic looks alot like Hubbards Gimp...
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [86] :: WOOD'S SNOOTY (2XW)(2XL)
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [173] :: HUBBARD'S GIMP
    Spike and Rattler share the same look from the stocky build to the split/pignose...MidnightCowboy had the same strong square shape driver build...
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [429297] :: BREWERS (GARNER'S) SPIKE ROM
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [19197] :: BUSENBARK'S CH RATTLER
    Of coarse Miss Pool Hall Red seemed to be as perfect as Honeybunch or anyother Carver bitch out there...
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [429297] :: BREWERS (GARNER'S) SPIKE ROM
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [3] :: CRENSHAW'S HONEYBUNCH (3XW)
    Some who have dealt with Ironhead dogs speculate that Honeybunch was off Ironhead and not Bullyson because the widow peaks were showing up down from Honeybunch and jeep, I speculate its from her grandsire Cracker whos IronHeads uncle, all in the family just a generation further back...
    A good point is why would Carver put Bullyson as the sire as he had just quit and it should be the other way...
    I think Honeybunch was a Cracker genotype instead of the Bullyson type because off looks and she produced bulldogs that went the distance more than her sire...
    They say the owner of Satch speculated him to be off Hunters Sam, which I see the resemblence and dont know of many brindles in the Ironhead line...
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [381923] :: HYDE'S SATCH
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [412] :: HUNTER'S SAM (CARVER) (1XW)(1XL)
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [26561] :: HENNEBERGER'S MR TOAD (SPARK'S HUNKY) A more likley source of brindle from Colby blood???
    Does any one know who Chivo and Blind Billy lost to???
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [2018] :: DAVIS' CHIVO (3XW-1XL)
    ONLINE PEDIGREES :: [4091] :: BOUDREAUX' BLIND BILLY (1XW)(1XL)
     
  19. old goat

    old goat CH Dog

    there's no speculating about Satch carver told ronnie to say he was out of Ironhead .
     
  20. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    I heard Satch was sold as being off Ironhead, but Satch came never seen carvers yard and was bred by Earl Hunter from some dogs he aquired from Carver...
    Mr.R.Hyde later found out that Satch was never on Carvers yard and after talking with Earl Hunter he realized that Satch might indeed be off Sam...
    Carver was known to keep alot of dogs at others place and sell pups from those breedings with the more famous dogs at his place on the pedigree...
    I am sure that when Carver had Ed Crenshaws champion Snow that he didnt admit to as much offspring as Snow produced, but alot of white dogs were poping up that looked alot more like the Colby line than the Dibo ex Black Widow dogs... Ed Crenshaws taped recordings are a priceless take from an honest dogman...
    I can agree Old Goat that Satch fits the bill of being off Sam, but it kills my Ironhead throwback theory in IBM, so I will say speculate for shizzz and gigzzz...
     

Share This Page