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Old Family Red

Discussion in 'APBT Bloodlines' started by Del Castillo PR, Apr 12, 2012.

  1. CrazyHorse

    CrazyHorse Big Dog

    Let me be very clear, Lightner's Vick did NOT start the OFRN strain Vick started the Lightner OFRN family within the OFRN strain. The 6 dogs you refer to were the Lightner dogs Hemphill and McCoy were able to obtain. Years later contrary to what many believed Jim William the OFRN breeder in an advertisement advertised pure Lightner dogs which he received from Lightner. There goes another misconception that Hemphill an McCoy found the last Lightner dogs. Stratton mentioned at the end of his OFRN article the OTHER OFRN BREEDERS such as Feeley, Williams, Corcoran and Shipley!

    Like I stated in my earlier post the biggest misconception is Lightner was the only OFRN breeder! Stratton used Lightner as a reference point because of the first hand experience and knowledge he had of the Lightner OFRN family. People need to reread Stratton's article to know the other OFRN breeders besides Lightner!
  2. hammer head

    hammer head Top Dog

    Red nose strains are created by years of inbreeding. Irish dogs were limited in number and so were heavily inbred by early dogmen.

    Same thing happening today with hall dogs deep down in Mexico. When you keep the same blood it revert to recessive traits. After 10/12 generations the genes are locked in. So if you bred a dark hound to them the pups have yellow eyes. Some stay red or chocolate or brindle. But the rednose will pop up in future litters
  3. TDK

    TDK CH Dog Staff Member

    I've always said the same thing, Hammer. It is derived from continual tight breeding.
  4. TDK

    TDK CH Dog Staff Member

    My post is not to debate any prior, historical facts. It's merely a genetic statement.
  5. who

    who Top Dog

    A red/red coming from black dogs is something to think about...
  6. stickler

    stickler Banned

    Red nose strains are created by years of inbreeding. Irish dogs were limited in number and so were heavily inbred by early dogmen.

    Same thing happening today with hall dogs deep down in Mexico. When you keep the same blood it revert to recessive traits. After 10/12 generations the genes are locked in. So if you bred a dark hound to them the pups have yellow eyes. Some stay red or chocolate or brindle. But the rednose will pop up in future litters

    Hammer Head is right 100% (this time, lol).

    And on the other side ...

    A red/red coming from black dogs is something to think about...

    No, it's not really. A black coming from two reds is where the thinking begins. Or was it the end already ? lol

    And that's also the same reason why it should be so easy to see 'the out' in them pure red starting strains like the OLD FAMILY REDS.
    I mean ... when I see ... a no red nose dog ... in a so called red nose strain like the OFRN ... then to me it's clear that ... there must be a cross somewhere. And it should be also easy to see WHAT the real cross is.
    Example ? Black Widow. A black bitch known as a 3/4 OFRN bred dog. Right ?
    Point 1. She's black.
    Point 2. She's 3/4 purebred on reds.
    Question to get to point 3: Which nose color got the last 1/4 ?
    Point 3. One of the 4 dogs in the second generation must be a black nose.
    And now here comes the final question ?
    What's the cross in there ?
    Everyone with an IQ close to 100 should get it, so don't dissapoint me, please. LOL
    Or it must be fake and that has something to do with lying and so forth.
  7. stickler

    stickler Banned

    What if Stratton was wrong ? He's also telling the APBT is still the same PURE BULLDOG BREED it ever was. NO TERRIER in them at all.
    Well, it does not even make sense at all !
  8. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    The pedigree states that true OFRN strains go back to this dog. The dog clearly shows breedings from all that I would concider Old Family, all in one dog. Once you click on centepede and look behind him you will see that breeders such as Lightner in their pedigree. Clouse was also able to use the recipe breeding in dogs such as Big Red Boy, which were later on down the time line. Hemphill, Wilder and McCoy were just a bit later on in the timeline. They were not the only ones to utilize the oldfamily lines. The old family lines are what started the dogs, no matter which strain was utilized, they all go back to the same shit folks.
    click on stabber - look at Mannings Stinger -

    once you look into the pedigree of these dogs, you will understand that we can only go back so far with Lightner history before we start to see starts or unknowns (one of the two) you pick. Before the history can be told, it has to be writen down, or it is all just hear say. The timeline only goes in one direction otherwords.

    Very good point about Lightner not being the only OF(OFRN){OFR} breeder. Like I wayays say - Old Family describes many strains, not just Red, RED Nosed, dogs.

  9. SteelyDan

    SteelyDan Big Dog

    A good book on this subject is the history of the pit bull terrier by Wayne d brown. He was a lawyer from Texas I believe that new many breeders of that era. If you consider yourself a historian on this breed or want some more info on these "old family" dogs it's a great resource if you can find it.

    In that book it states lightner was a 3rd generation Dogman. That should tell you something about what those unknowns are and their origins. Reading further into it you can see the dogs which he had crossed up and kept more linear in Colorado imp and Searcy Jeff.
  10. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    that is exactly what point i was trying to make. Lightner was born 1878, died 1959, so in between there you have the imp colorado dan dogs what was before that? and what was after and where is it pure to this day, given one can read a pedigree and se more than words and pictures. :)
  11. stickler

    stickler Banned

    You picked a good example with Manning's Stinger. That's why I mentioned that Firefly is not really a cross. And there is still more dogs that show the same background, like Silver Boy, I believe was his name.

    Back to Stinger. His dam was Wallace's Penny. A red nose ?
    Could be of interest, if not.

    Stinger, same as Centipede, has english influence in them.
    But real important is the way they are bred AFTER the cross is done.

    Well, ok.
    J.P.Colby got many many dogs over the years. Lots of english bred dogs and only a few pure irish bred dogs, I guess.
    But he knew the value for those irish dogs. Most probably it did not even work without the irish blood influence.
    And, of course, he tried to keep em as tight as possible for future breedings.
    Irish Old Family dogs were always hard to get. Could have something to do with the philosophy those Irish people had back in those days and still to this day, I believe.
    So Colby (who's family was welsh !) kept mostly english bred dogs, who he was able to 'fire up' with the irish blood, if needed.
    Since the irish dogs were/are tighter bred, they tend to throw more of their genetics into the mix.
    Means, a 50/50 cross will show more of the irish side in the offspring.
    Those offspring, when crossed back to the english dogs, will produce dogs that will show EVEN MORE signs of a cross !
    In simple words (as always when its coming from me, lol) the irish blood is thicker.
    And so J.P. bred his dogs back and forth for many years and never used a cross again, until he got Galtie.
    What would you call Galtie ?
    I would not even call him APBT. ?!?!
    Pitdog ? Yes, for sure.
    Born in America, so he is American ?
    OFRN ?
    OFR ?

    It probably always sounds like me trying to know better at all times. But that's not what makes me always coming back.
    Maybe it's me who is completaly wrong. Honestly, I don't know !
    Doing my own research for 25 yrs and I still don't get it. Well, I really believe, I'm close to the truth, sometimes.
    What I do all the time is trying to get straight facts first and checking the odds all over again.
    It's more or less a selection of facts to see the possible ways from there. Well, with offspring you can go 3, or let's take 4 ways with them.
    Back to the sire's side, back to the dam's side, back to the same cross or bro x sis, and you can completaly outcross again, but that's scatterbreeding already.
    And so it goes and goes and goes ...
    I'm always trying to put some (important ?) facts into my posts.
    But I always get the feeling that I MUST BE THE ONLY ONE who is wrong.

    Damn, what a dilemma. lol
  12. bamaman

    bamaman GRCH Dog

    Like what has already been said.All we have is opinion from what we studied.Like someone said if it wasnt written down its hard to verify it as a fact.But no stickler your no more wrong than anyone else.You have your own theory based on what you have researched and studied.
  13. stickler

    stickler Banned

    That's for sure my favorite book. Read and study the book a hundred times.
    Problem is, it doesn't go back far enough, and he himself is writing that he don't know for sure.
    About Lightner dogs, is this all ALL AMERICAN DOGS ? Or did the Lightner family kept their own tight bred Old Family dogs they brought over with them from ireland ?
    And I still don't know who this Mr.Brown is or was. Al Brown family member ?
    The 'fact and fable' book is giving some facts (or fables) about what happened in the beginning.
    Unfortunaly, it lacks a little bit on the irish dogs, as always.
    I realized that often times the irish dogs seem to be the completaly opposite to the english dogs, so whenever I see a leak I just put the irish part in there, and it often seems to fit. Crazy ! lol
    What happened to the pure or tight bred english dogs can be seen in a breed known as the SBT.
    It lacks the 'red part', lol.
    There is also no irish influence in those Bulldog x (White) Terrier cross dogs called EBT.
    Of course, Wallace was not breeding only reds. His main stuff wasn't red nose dogs.
  14. SteelyDan

    SteelyDan Big Dog

    I could give a shit honestly where lightners dogs began or what old family they were a part of. The important thing is that there was and is a succession of traits from those old dogs and whether it was lightner who carried it on or Jim Williams or Carver or crenshaw or a very few who keep it relevant today there is a long history of linearly breed winning game family's of dogs. Not just individuals making up a pedigree but family's carrying on the success.
  15. stickler

    stickler Banned

    Ok, another example of what almost kills me.
    Using words and names like Old Family and i.e. Feeley at the same time.
    Am I really that wrong ?
    Sure, without a doubt, Feeley got also some irish old family dogs. TO CROSS WITH HIS OWN ENGLISH BRED DOGS !
    Same cross like in Colby dogs. helloooooo
    Let's say it's 50/50 if you all like, but it's more like 2/3 and 1/3, or maybe 75%/25%.
    To call this the purest of the Old Family dogs is pure bull- or terrier-shit.
    This can't be true. NO WAY !!!
    I would highly appreciate it if someone comes up with facts and proofs about Feeley dogs being pure OLD FAMILY DOGS of irish fame !
    What about his black dogs ?
  16. stickler

    stickler Banned

    Dibo is a OFR ?
    What bothers me is THAT HE DOES NOT HAVE A RED NOSE !
    Or it's all irish, who knows and who cares !
  17. stickler

    stickler Banned

    The heavier irish bred Colby and Feeley dogs were the closest thing to the few left 'pure bred' Lightner dogs, so they used THEM for their OFRN-project.
    But it wasn't pure bred anymore. Get it ! Tight enough, but not pure irish old family.
  18. stickler

    stickler Banned

    I'm always open for discussions about this, as I'm not even sure that old family dogs can not have a black nose.
    But the proof should be easier to get, if we all believe IM, who always said, the irish old family dogs always came only in red, therefore OLD FAMILY REDS.
    It's almost impossible to get the story straight, if those early dogs carried red AND black noses.
    But I guess, this would be a step back for IM and his followers.
    So, what is a black nose telling you, if it's about the old family (dogs) ?
  19. stickler

    stickler Banned

    did I say almost impossible ?
  20. stickler

    stickler Banned

    What's your opinion, TDK ?
    Come an join us if you like the heat.

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