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Old Family Red

Discussion in 'APBT Bloodlines' started by Del Castillo PR, Apr 12, 2012.

  1. TripleJ

    TripleJ CH Dog

    The fact of the matter is People speculate what did this and what bred this to get this , Yet then in other parts of the world they had dog that allready looked like pitdogs 100's of years befor in old carvings and paintings in times well befor all this spectulation time frame. And when the dogs records were really kept to where we have a clue about it the dogs were just like they are now. So truthfully no one really knows they all just think. Id be willing to betthe dogs have been around a bit longer than you may speculate. and it wouldnt supprize me one bit if the roman times of jesus they walked the earth. Hell in an stratton book even they have an old wood carving of dogs that look JUST like game dogs I think they may have even had an ear trim I cant remember. Men have been speculating for ever on how the breed came about, I have seen people get plum pissy about it lol. Im allways like Oh can i see the pic of that bulldog and rat dog locked up befor I buy one lol
     
  2. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog



    This is correct. The Irish folk, after being here in America, talked about the dogs in refference, as being bred by ol Family. There were quite a few "Families" round that time, known for keeping top notch dogs, used for all kinds of activities, the best money maker being, a match of course.
    Catch work and that being said, if a dog could not do its job, yep, it was done away with. Only kept the best, bred best to best, established like charictoristics, and went from there. Been writen and there should not really be so much confusion, especially if one done their homework, right fellers?

    He is right, any true form of this dog, is like finding a dinasour. Now - That being said..there are some wonderful specimens arorund that do a great job in having these dogs as ancestors.
    YIS
    McCoy - from the ol family
     
  3. TripleJ

    TripleJ CH Dog

    Thats what I thought I , thought yall were sayin the old rednose were a diff breed, And I also been saying you wont find any they are gone. But I think the guys that breed the red nose strains Kinda put that bird in flight also. not so much the guys like mike and mike .(Thats funny Mike Morgan. you have the same damn prob as I do LOL you have some one with the same name LOL. And he even runs Bad ass red dogs too that just hit me. But I think the guyS like the mike S theydont premote the big exotic image of OLD fam red , But alot do. I was waiting for the next NEW breed to pop up real OLD FAM dogs LOL a Brand new breed LOL. And yes I think they were all Decordova They were the first dog I had with a big pretty sheet i remember I opened it and was so proud of them I must have toted them for two weeks with them pups. IStill rember the first red nose dog i seen and that was the first exotic story on how they got here also. But I had to have one That is for dang sure they were so much stouter and stronger and they were so dang pretty I just thought I would never have any thing But Them. then I got a mcoy dog straight from kansess Man I thought I was top turd on kingshit hill when the older guys would tell me how good they looked and compement me on my lil yard. Funny you dont never see 16 yr old boys with dogs anymore. Those dogs were the only old rednose blood around my parts execpt what my buddy that bought them with me had,and he got the best ones his dogs could kick mines asses that would piss me off so bad, I guess thats is the reason I kinda went On the path of tring to find the best ones I could Just so That lil shit would stop beating me up.
     
  4. stickler

    stickler Banned

    Thank you Mike. Thank you very much.
    Looks like a good time for asking more questions. But I guess I first need some time for thinking about what you wrote.
    Well, that 'separate breed' stuff sounds crazy as hell. But not to me, lol. Thats the only simple explanation. I just wished this to be true. Because I then got it. I got a very clear picture. Thank you !
    Oh, just one question.
    So it's just about that group of dogmen called the Old Family who kept and fought their Old Family 'Reds' ? So, these dogs have always been red ? And nothing else ?
     
  5. stickler

    stickler Banned

    That's just a great question. It must have been like a miracle when the Galtie dog came ot of nowhere. And there's nothing left in Ireland ? Crazy !
    And to people like Ricky. The talk is not about the OFRN's. OFRN is an american strain of red noses within the breed of the APBT. They have, as all other strains too, OFR's in their backgrond. Old Family Reds were Irish, means no APBT.
     
  6. i cant tell if your being sarcastic but IMO it is a good question ! can you show me someting that refares to pitbull dogs being worked in ireland from between the time of say the late 1800's and the 1940's ?
     
  7. stickler

    stickler Banned

    I believe the "breed of pit dogs of today" is made of different breeds of fighting dogs. Pit Dogs, Bull Dogs, Rat Dogs and whatever worked. That explains 'bloodlines' or such things like what Armitage i.e. wrote early in his book. He talked about a cross bred dog used for matches, but no single bad word about it. Was that maybe a common thing at this time ? Well, I would bet that J.P. Colby did use different breeds of fighting pit dogs on his breedings. And that's just very interesting, at least it is to me.
    And it's not about finding them dinosours, it's about getting a better understanding of what they did back then. What makes the 'modern pit dog', the APBT ?
    Maybe there is something to learn ? I'm sure there is.
     
  8. stickler

    stickler Banned

    lol Another great question.
    Yeah, right, I'm a very sarcastic type of guy. That's one of my probs, lol.
    But, I can also be very serious, especially when it's about the dogs history. Can't hide that.
    Your questions are just great. Really ! I'm asking these questions myself for years already. Your questions are something like 'the final questions'. Maybe a little too early. But those 50-75 yrs you mentioned are very, very important. That's the 'missing link'. I bet they have showed dogs at that time. But what happened to the Old Family In Ireland. Nobody of them stayed there in Ireland ?
     
  9. TripleJ

    TripleJ CH Dog

    Its your right to belive anything you want But the fact is all you are going to do is rack your brain, Couse Im talking about not even words but pics so far back befor the birth of our country Im talking WAY back Roman times they had dogs that LOOKED Just like the same thing we have today. Now show me where some one made a account of breeding rat dogs to bulldogs to get game dogs, I know that is what some think, But I have allso herd that No one really knows how they were created, and I tend to belive that God put them here to keep people like me in line! All I do know like I been tring to tell you STICK is that shit is so far out of sight it dont matter, If you like the look of the red dogs you can still find very good red dogs You dont have to chase gost.There is just about every line(strain)what ever has red dogs, and if you Have to have old type blood well I clearly statted the people that still have honest dogs and breeds for public , Now Im not saying Mike or mike breeds the best or only ones But those are the only ones I have seen that really looked first class and seem to have as good of odds as any strain in the world. Do i think you have the BIGGEST odds of getting bullshited on a pup ifyou mess with alot of the red breeders, just way too maney of them just peddle pups. Also I would have to just buy a grown dog to make sure it was what I wanted,I know it will cost alot more but in the long run it is just soo much cheaper to buy grown and breed your own up. I would reather pay 1,500 for a good prospect then 500 for a pup that dont turn out . THEN YOU WASTED 2 YEARS YOU CAN NEVER GET BACK,EVERY DOG COUNTS EVERY DAY IN THE DOGS COUNT.You younger guys will see that soon you can waste time fast waiting on dogs. It will piss you off if you settle for less ,Kinda like a Wife you wouldnt marry a sloppy skank why feed skank sloppy dog it cost just as much to feed a good one. and stick if you keep chasing gost your time will run out and you are going to find your self sleeping with a skank. Now go get you a good pup from one of the mikes and have yourown lil pice of red nose history and leave the old fam red dogs in the books thats where they belong, Like I said every day counts and you never know stick that pup of a life time may be sitting ther allready waiting on you you done wasted all the time you need to on this! join the class, get off your ass, go pick up the phone, and get that pup if any one needs one its you.
     
  10. JoeBingo

    JoeBingo Banned

  11. Iron Mike

    Iron Mike CH Dog

    No, There was no group called "Old Family" McCoy and I tried to explain this to you where the name Old Family came from........"Old Family Reds" that is it. That is all!
    Irish Klans live in an area around each other and family bred their dogs amoung their self. Each had their own Old Family of dogs and they were Red in color.
    No other dogs from any other country or any of other type of fighting dog from Europe or bloodlines or anything was ever used as a name reference with the term "Old Family" in it other then the breed of Irish fighting dog- [b}Old Family Reds[/b]
     
  12. Iron Mike

    Iron Mike CH Dog

  13. Iron Mike

    Iron Mike CH Dog

    I can, I have pictures of Jim Corcoran with his dogs he imported directly from his family in Ireland.
    Jim Corcoran came to the U.S. to John L. Sullivan and stayed and became a Boston cop.
     
  14. crimsonghost

    crimsonghost Top Dog

    Yea IM when you gonna quit being greedy and send a farm out down here lmao?
     
  15. Iron Mike

    Iron Mike CH Dog

    No, great grand son, I.K.'s OX through Check, then Billy, then Ox.
    Pure Boudreaux bloodline, heavy in Boze blood.
     
  16. stickler

    stickler Banned

    Are you saying the OFR are coming from more than just 1 Irish Klan ?
    It's not just about 1 Klan ?
    All those dogs of that area that are kept pure and red in color can be called OFR's ?
    And each Klan got his own strain of Old Family Reds ?
    Does that mean that lots of Klans from one area got their dogs from the very same foundation, the first Old Family, the original so to say ? And each Klan used to call them Old Family ? And the Reds are coming from their 'own' foundation (different breed as the black noses) ?
     
  17. Iron Mike

    Iron Mike CH Dog

    There has been no such thing as "pure Old Family Red Nose" dogs.
    When the Irish Old Family Reds were brought to the U.S. they were bred to the other fighting dogs from Europe and created the breed APBT.
    Those other breeds weren't OFR dogs.
     
  18. I would be very intrested in seeing them . I would bet the majority of them dogs where pied and where not red .
    Could you post some of them pics or pm them please ?.
    Im very intrested in the irish bulldogs and where they all went its like they just disappeard .
     
  19. Iron Mike

    Iron Mike CH Dog

    I can see by the continued posts no one is reading the forum I posted so I will post here so people can understand the history of the breed.
    http://ironlinekennels.com/NorrodBillboard/viewtopic.php?t=873

    Heritage Reference of the American Pit Bull Terrier.

    Understanding where the different fighting dogs came from,
    will help explain the typical (Type) of the APBT is suppose to look like.


    I have wrote the difference in other breeds compared to the APBT,
    which included their size, to their conformation differences and
    how they are traditionally suppose to look for each breed.


    For the APBT you have to look at the difference of the main well known foundation dogs to understand the color heritage.
    The Staffords from Staffordshire England was a black nose dog which was more common in color of cow patch, white with black brindle patches.
    Not often of solid background colors.
    One of the more known colors of brindle, of a solid color background, was a brownish color,
    later years referred to as the Staff brindle.


    From Scotland came the Blue Pauls, Blue Pols, Blue Paulies.
    These dogs were mainly blue brindle and white with a blue colored nose.
    In later years, with the popularity of this color, this strain started appearing in the dogs with a solid blue coat.


    From Ireland came, the most famous of all the known fighting breeds to help create the APBT,
    the Old Family Reds.
    These dogs came in the color of red, red and white with red noses.
    The color of both the nose and the coat was of a dark red, liver in color or copper red like a penny.


    Black and Tan breed of fighting bulldogs were believed to trace back into the Germanic Mastiff.
    Many were brought over by immigrants from Holland, Hungary, Austria, Germany, ect.


    From France came the Buckskin Fighting Dogs,
    whose heritage appearance was close to the French Mastiff type.
    Often known to be on the larger size compared to the other foundation dogs of the APBT.


    The last colors' heritage was vast, from many known locations, believed to be their heritage.
    Robert F. Lemm wrote in his book "Seen through the Eyes of the Millmaker" the black and brindle dogs mostly came from the mountains of Spain and Italy.
    Another black nose breed.


    With so many of the Americans who are made up with Spanish and Italian descent,
    it would be hard to believe these countries had no influence in making up the APBT in this era.

    Their known history of the game Spanish Bulldog used around the sport of Bull Fighting and the Italian Canine Gladiators used in the coliseums,
    would explain where the main part of the color of black and brindle dogs originated.

    Any other color then the ones mentioned are unexplainable,
    unless it is from breed-crossing from other known breeds of today,
    thus making those dogs' heritage not of the traditional APBT.


    The common mistake, in explaination,
    is due from a well known story of one of the most famous dog men in history.
    His story is flawed because of being bias to his own heritage.
    In writing this story, he excluded all the other known foundation breeds which help create the APBT.

    In his story he writes the APBT was created by crossing the English Bulldog
    to the now extinct English White Terrier.
    In his bias belief, he wanted other owners to believe,
    the APBT was created the same way the English Bull Terrier was created.

    Over time, the variance in colors of the APBT, has proven his belief of the creation of the APBT to be wrong.
     
  20. Iron Mike

    Iron Mike CH Dog

    No they are red and small dogs. Jim's picture in a small 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 picture frame.
    No, I won't. I have them in my own personal collection.
    I lost count of how many pictures of mine ended up in books and magazines.
    I have yet got a free copy!
    I don't load up people photo albums or files of pedigree on dogs no more.
    Most Irish dogs died off during the Phnom.
     

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