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Remenbering the past, while looking to the future

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by mccoypitbulls, Feb 6, 2014.

  1. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog


    “It’s easy enough for individuals to claim for their animalssuperiority of blood and qualities, and if we have no thorough test for themthere can be no way of providing or disproving the assertion. Hundreds of dogsare annually put into the stud and the services sought by sportsman who dependupon the owners prejudiced statement, and in this way the number of worthlessanimals is constantly increased. It must be remembered, too, that it ispossible for a dog to be of pure lineage, yet dishonor it by cur-likequalities, and either vanity or lack of experience prevents the owner fromdetecting this. Unprejudiced andpositive tests are therefore greatly needed, and these can only be found inshow and trials under judges who have the common interest so keenly in viewthat they will allow neither friendship nor personal bias to control the awards;men who will bear ever in mind that upon their decision will greatly depend thefuture reputation of the animal in the stud, and who will therefore examinecarefully each specimen before them, giving due credit to beauty and blood, butin all cases where possible requiring also performance ere they pronounce afavorable verdict”

    *Arnold Burgis, American Kennel and Sporting Field, 1876


    Found this quote yesterday and had to share it with you all. Hope you enjoy:cool:
     
  2. Mudville_Monsta

    Mudville_Monsta Top Dog

    You already know what I think
     
  3. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    Anyone want to talk about breeding and the experiences they have had ??

    The talk in the "clemmons durango red" thread made me think about this and how a pedigree can be a tool used to produce quality animals. Without knowledge of what one has or what it came from, how can things get better?
     
  4. BEHAVIN

    BEHAVIN Top Dog

    mate, im not the best at explaining my thoughts, or pen to paper etc... but ill try to put up some of my reasoning, if ya can call it that.
    1 i do agree to some extent of what is always discused about using a pedigree for breeding. eg. tightning up on particular dogs that showed certain traites/gameness or just good producers, but not only individual dogs also relatives etc...
    all understood.
    i am wondering with the way some are so hung up on this, would they pass up a near dead game dog i offered them because they didn't know how it was bred? would they use this dog in a breeding program.
    from many discussions on the topic i would assume the answer would most likely be they wouldn't.
    i like to see what would happen in reality.
    what comes to mind for me is way back in nineteen diggy doo we have dogs that these days would be considered by alot scatter bred. yet most will always reflect back and say those dogs of the past were the greatest, there are threads on this forum that come up like "if you could have any dog who would it be"? etc.etc...people always relate back to those dogs of the past. yet today we see these same people tightening up so much on one dog. don't get me wrong, i understand why, but at the same time i wonder why, when there is a much larger gene pool than there ever was.
    could it be that back in the day when breeders tightened up on a few individuals was not only were they the best at that time, but there was also a limit to access good dogs. eg: people were restriced by distance/travel... and there was only a small number of dogs available.
    these days there is no excuse, you can travel the world, freight frozen semen, live stock etc.
    i don't wan't to get into genetics, i understand it enough to suit my purpose but thats that, but one thing that comes to mind that always comes up in the subject is diversity. how much diversity do you get from tightening up on one individual dog 3-4-5 times. i say fark all.
    yet common sence tells me any dog that has what it takes, and that is if we are talking game dogs, not just barn storming wrecking machines should be bred together.
    a question to ask is....just how often does someone get a truely deep game dog? im sure most already know the answer to that.
    so what i see as sence is to combine as many individuals togerther that posses that trait.
    people say certain blood clicks, im of the opinion individual dogs click and if you go back far enough most are relaited somewhere.
    back in the day, funny thing is i knew a few dog fighters, suprise suprise..lol...
    don't quote me, but 7 out of 10 didn't give a rats ass how the dog was bred so long as he won, it could of had cattle dog in it or staff, what ever, you and i will never know, but if it won, its proberly in someones pedigree by now lol....
    2 out of that 10 line bred/inbred etc, had some good dogs and some bad but was always looking, doing his head in trying to find an out that well represented what he had, alot do this, and have success and go on for years, but alot go backwards too.
    yet i found ol mate, the 1% that just picked up a game dog when ever it came along, averaged better dogs over time. his dogs were always stronger and better built than the average.
    i suppose in reality my personal thoughts are, anything can work for any given person you have to use the best dogs available to you.
    ive also noticed over the years the big hype when someone has success, everyone wants to breed off the same dogs now theres a zillion mayday dogs out there.
    my thoughts are why not go your own direction and breed something thats going to beat it
    this new peds online is a croc, how many ch,grch pop up when a litter is on the ground, lets put so&so in the ped 24 times, it looks good, yet everyone jumps on the wagon and buys one or starts breeding up on those dogs.
    forget about the crap and talk with the people doing it, most won't have there peds up there and most that do now have thier stuff up there proberly aint going to have much in the future.
    anyhow, im going to leave my ranting there for now as i need to get some things done.
    cheers......
     
  5. BEHAVIN

    BEHAVIN Top Dog

    lol come'n back to this sooner than later.
    id like to add...if you take someone elses line bred/inbred dogs and try to achieve the same there are going to be discrepancies.
    you are going to see things diferently, no matter how little they are, it will have a large impact later, maybe better, maybe for worse. i add this because a large majority of people say ill take one like that before theyll accept an individual dog of lesser breeding or if you like the turm(scatter bred) i dont like the turm personally.
    so what would be wrong with taking a number of top quality individuals that you don't know the ped of but they are from working stock, then start your own family of dogs and from then on you will know the pedigree, in doing this you should be able to see what you need to see, that meets your expectation and not try to live up to someone elses.
    i think if youve got your head screwed on right you can achieve the goal just the same or maybe better.
     
  6. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    Thanks for offering your insight behavin. I understand your take. Its a gamble either way. Taking stock from someone that has been breeding the said family for generations, or that may be very close to them is always going to work out better, if you ask me. I see your point.
    I like family bred dogs for the reason of knowing what they are from and what to expect as you have said. That being said, my true passion lies with the crosses. I have learned a bit about genetics and from what I gather the crosses are going to posses the best of both worlds, but may not produce it. Keeping the seed stock intact seems to be a must, so that the hybrids may be brought back to pull more said genes in at a later time.

    Breeding many times one one or two dogs seems to be risky and I can understand why. Still folks seem to base their families in that way. As history has shown us, some of the best crosses came from the crossing of the Irish Imports to the English imports. When these crosses were made, the type slightly changed, but they seemed to bring vigor that was hard to beat. If enough study is done, one may come to understand that these families have actually been kept seperate to an extent also, in different families.
    I have been doing a lot of reading on genetics for my own purposes, and not just in the pedigree of dogs, but also horses, cattle, and even smaller animals. Most breeds are created from cosses based on Mendels Laws and other breeding ideas. I am interested in those to gain an understanding of looking at the dogs before us and how they differ.
    I enjoy going to dog shows for the same reason. It gives you an idea of what is out there and how they are built.

    kind of back to what you were saying about unknown dogs - One of my favorite dogs out of my three, only half of her pedigree is known to me, as she was bred from local folks. She shares half of the same genes as some of my dog that are gone now. She is fixed, so breeding with her is not an option, and even then, I am not sure I'd use her, as the other half is not documented. The top was known to an extent, while the bottom was only based of the persons word.
    Cant use her anyway, but the thought of doing so is still something i ponder from time to time.

    just a couple thoughts in response to what you have put here. hope some others will add their thoughts also.
     
  7. bounty

    bounty Big Dog

    Not sure why everyone is stuck on line breeding and family breeding. More often than not the best dogs are from 3 way crosses or maybe more. And those dogs go on to produce as well. Jeep was a 3 way cross maybe even more depending how you look at it. And he went on to produce Tab who went on to produce and so on.

    It's more important to select the good individuals. They are the ones that have the good genes.
     
  8. Iron Mike

    Iron Mike CH Dog

    JMO no one should give advice on how to breed until they have made some kind of accomplishments to add merit to their advice.
    Now when someone starts using dog names for reference I could really break their heart.
    Specially when they never saw the dog or seen it go.


    Good dogs are where you find them. No matter how they are bred.
    Advice?


    Out crossing aka scatter breeding is throwing enough shit up against the wall until something sticks.
    This is why there are so many curs dogs in the world.
     
  9. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog


    Well with that being, I believe some of the best geneticist in the world have never bred anything at all.
    Just by studying the pedigrees of people, horses, cattle, dogs, or any living thing for that matter can lead to a very good understanding to how things cary through with every generation.
    Some years ago there was a big uproar about red headed people falling into extinction. Geneticists were saying that red head people would need breed with red headed people, to lock in a dominant genes so that the offspring would be carriers of such genes. If two parents cary a recessive gene of red hair, but do not actually have red hair, and breed, a red head can pop out of the wood work. It happens in all animals that have that tone of hair.



    We are trying to gain some understanding from folks that know, not stir the pot and polish our egos. Please share some of your experience with us if you have time. We are all here to learn.
    There has been a lot of posts lately that seem to be merely for personal satisfaction, and I assure you that is not the case with this thread. I just want to talk to folks that are willing to share their experience opinions.

    I agree - good dogs are where they are found. Some of the best examples in the history of breeding have been crosses.
    I am talking people, dogs, cattle, horses, fish and many species. That is nothing new. Without crosses, where would we be today?

    Out crossing and scatter breeding do not mean the same thing to me, but mayby i am just confused.
    Glad to see you posting on this thread. Please enlighten us on your experiences, for you being one that breeds red nosed dog on a consistent level must know a lot on dominant and recessive genes.
     
  10. stinkrock

    stinkrock Top Dog

    When people breed best X best no matter which bloodline they are ,aren't they trying to do the same thing? Trying to pull all the good traits from each dog. So what's the difference?
     
  11. BEHAVIN

    BEHAVIN Top Dog

    thats the way i see it.
    its part of what i was say'n above. everyone or better said alot of people are all for the line breeding/inbreeding etc... on a certain dog and they hang onto the idea that is the number one dog, they have to right?? and for good reason in most cases....
    but that number one dog that was so good was from breeding best to best lol....
    its seems people will always talk up what justifies their means but it don't make it the right thing to do.

    hey, IM, i don't mind throwing shit against the wall so long as something does stick lol...
    but i wouldn't let the next guy take it either, in that case i think its better left inhouse, that being said i know were your com'n from and respect ya mate.
    and like i said before alot can have to do where ya live, there aint always want ya want around the corner either.
     
  12. BEHAVIN

    BEHAVIN Top Dog

    i also see it the other way, once youve pulled all the good traits that you can, then ya wanna hang onto them, thats when the line/inbreeding comes in.
    ps...im not giving advise, just my personal thoughts......
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2014
  13. corvettedex

    corvettedex CH Dog

    Yes a little in site on breeding.By Dr Lector - The Colby Line.
     
  14. corvettedex

    corvettedex CH Dog

    :thinking:
    Iron Mike's on point! Good post !
     
  15. keystone

    keystone CH Dog

    even smaller animals
    ---------------
    like what lol rats .

    peds have to be correct right
    but best is to look to the dogs and not to the peds
     
  16. keystone

    keystone CH Dog

    some of the best crosses came from the crossing of the Irish Imports to the English imports.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    its stil about between crosses of pure family's ...
    but don't wait til the(a) family becoming inferieure ..
    ooohhh i have to cros possible its to late .
    --------------------------------------------------
    mccoy if you like study ... you could check out the mayfield tape's
     
  17. 305APBT

    305APBT Big Dog

    Any thoughts on AI breeding and collecting straws from proven dogs. As a novice I'm interested in your experiences. I have read that with AI larger litters could be produced as well semen can be saved for a long time if kept cold enough. With this semen can be shipped worldwide or collected to be used at a later time.

    Does a dog with a "papered" ped, proven dogs, not have a better percentage of having its ancestors good traits. Each individual could reflect said traits from 1st gen, or 2nd, 3rd...?
     
  18. keystone

    keystone CH Dog

    peds/tittle's are not producing
    only genes.
     
  19. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog


    keystone - I have watched a lot of his videos, and his ideas are interesting.. Sometimes hard to follow but interesting none the less.
     
  20. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    sure Rats have led to some very good research, but I like to look into the animals that have a function. The race horse folks have put in a lot of time in on keeping their pedigrees true.
    My family raised cattle for many years and some of the best producing examples i can think of have been cross bred.

    I agree with you on the English/Irish crossed. Without those crosses, where would the dogs be today? Good point.
     

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