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...The FAMOUS MOLLY BEE...

Discussion in 'The Dogs' started by ELIAS'PISTOLA, Aug 26, 2016.

  1. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    http://www.sporting-dog-news.com/gr-ch-bassedwards-molly-bee-8xw/

    The Famous Molly Bee... By Bob Stevens

    ...This article is about one of the best pit dogs in history. She was born in the early seventies. one in a litter of seven coal black puppies in the yard of
    James Edwards. she has played an important role in the development of our breed. Having an ALL BLACK litter was NO ACCIDENT because Molly Bee was linebred Henley's BIG BOY, a big solid black dog that was a cousin to Zebo. Mr.Edwards founded a strain of bulldogs on the BIG BOY dog
    that was characterized by intelligence , ability and a very hard, destructive bite. BIG BOY was a very unique animal, very special animal. He was exceptionally athletic and moved with the grace of large jungle cats. He had an unusual ability to find the weakness in the dogs combat patern
    and could very quickly destroy a dog, any dog.
    ...The unfortunate thing about BIG BOY was he would not scratch into a dog and he was fought "country style" with no scratching. In other words put the two dogs down together and the better dog survives. BIG BOY was fought for five years and was undefeated in countless matches (although I know one individual that says he sen BIG BOY out wrestled when he was young by another big black dog. whether or not that is true, I dont know or care.). Usually when you have a dog of BIG BOYs calibre,he didnt get many fights because everybody had a zillion reasons why they cant match into them. But since BIG BOY was exceptionally large dog (for those days) and big dogs usually dont have the gameness and since BIG BOY wouldnt scratch, he was tried by many dogmen who figured they could beat him with good unstoppable game to the core bulldog with high ability. A dog that would hold him out long enough that he would quit. If those dogs were not picked up, however, BIG BOY (would usually)
    kill them and in those days it was pretty rare for a dog to kill another match dog. The winner of almost all matches was won on gameness of the dog and the degree of the conditoning the dog had.
    ...Mr.Edwards set out to recreate another BIG BOY. Well as might be be expected, alot of curs were produced. Dogs that would quit even when they would outclass their opponent. They would bite down their opponent and then stand over them or walk away. even worse some would jump the pit even though they were winning. This statement might make some people sad but sorry to say I have seen with BIG BOY bred dogs many times and his cousin Zebo bred dogs too. But these digs were not from Mr.Edwards yard. What I dont think a lot of people realize about this strain of bulldog (BIG BOY, Zebo, Homer, Molly Bee etc...) requires more personal human attention than many other lines. They must be hand raised.
    This bloodline usually doesn't give a hoot about other dogs. They do not socialize well with other dogs but they make humans the center of their of life. They are often very shy of their environment and need the extra socialization an owner can provide.
    ...All quality bred pitbulls are very affectionate with people but not many as are bonding with people as the Zebo, BIG BOY type dog. Today we sont have much of the Molly bee dogs for that strains reputation for producing high performers that quit. But in the hands of what I consider (my personal viewpoint) a quality true dogman, this strain produces high performers with enough gameness. In other words there are curs in every litter, but on the right yard a Zebo, BIG BOY, Molly Bee bred litter will have as many game dogs or nearly the same as the bloodlines noted for gameness.

    Part one of three or so...(EP)
     
  2. DogMan85

    DogMan85 Banned

    That's strange, I thought Zebo was a man biter....
     
  3. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    part 2...

    ...Look at Ozzie Steven's (Greenwood's) champion Homer, the dog that fought Jeep for almost four hours. He fought uphill because Jeep ruined his shoulder early on in the match, and it was a fast paced match no lying around. Homer scratched from I don't know where but somewhere from the
    depths of his heart, trying to go across pushing with his rear legs- his front legs were dysfunctional. He is bred basically the same as Zebo and Molly Bee.
    He had more gameness than most of the dogs bred towards the quality of gameness and he was not an isolated incident either. Zebo himself showed a high degree of gameness in the classic match with Greaser for that matter. So that is my position on that.
    ...Anyway Mr.Edwards wanted to recreate BIG BOY, the fact that he accomplished that (and more) with Molly Bee (who was an eight time winner)
    is no accident. She was genetically planned. A lot of people don't know Mr.Edwards bred fox hounds foe many years before he got into breeding pitbulls. He knew a lot from "hands on" experience about breeding. All consistent quality in performance animals comes from linebreeding and inbreeding.Probably the highest performing animal in the world is the dog who competed in the square- in the fight game. It is my understanding that the American Pitbull Terrier is the most completely inbred of all animals.
    ...How good was Molly Bee? Did she in fact replicate the talented destroyer of dreams, Henley's BIG BOY? Well it was relatively unusual for females
    to make champion, never mind eight wins. Since most of her matches were unreported the eight times of coarse is disputed by the usual wagging
    of tongues. But I have checked with those present with those who were there and I have satisfied myself (since she figures heavily in my breeding program) of the eight wins. All the dogs matched into Molly Bee were quality dogs. But good or poor dog, it didn't matter because Molly Bee could very quickly kill them with apparent ease if they were not picked up very soon. All of her matches and rolls were very short- many of them only three or four minutes. She was so good that in all of he career- and it was along one- she was never scratched on- NOT ONCE!
    ...The hardest match she had was her first one, a dog from Doc Whitley that was two time winner and had taken out both here opponents early.
    The match lasted thirteen minutes. Her longest match however went for nineteen minutes. In that match her opponent cut a bleeder on Molly Bee
    in the very beginning of the match and that slowed her down a bit. It ends it for m\ny dogs but Molly Bee stopped the dog in nineteen minutes.
    One guy said he traveled from some place (I think it was Texas) to see the fabulous Molly Bee, he traveled all night and half the day and ended up in the boonies someplace. He said after the dogs were washed and weighed, as they brought Molly to pitside, he turned and walked to the back of the crowd to get a sandwich or something. He got his sandwich and fixings, turned around and went back- and the match was over!
    ...See, Molly Bee was much more than a hard bite. she had the uncanny ability to immediately adjust to any dogs style, find the weakness or opening
    and go in- and wreck the dog. Its like in one dog, she literally wrecked her opponents stifles to where the dog actually could not get up. So the people that matched into her, next thought they would put a very game but hard biting nose and head dog on her. This dog was pretty talented and designed to beat the hard biting destroyer dogs, especially a stifle dog. In other words it was specifically chosen to beat Molly Bee. But when she tried her thing on Molly Bee, well in less than two minutes Molly broke her jaw- I mean really! In other words Molly gave her right back what she was trying to do, she wrecked the dogs mouth. I am told that Mr.Hargrove said she was the best pit dog male or female) he had ever saw- and no question he seen a lot.
    ...But before she was sold and entered in the competitive world, she was a pet at James Edward's home. She was special right from the start. she was the first pup out of the whelping box and showed to be very intelligent from the beginning. She was very athletic and had an ideal confirmation.
    She and her brother Hoss Eli rode around town in the back of Mr.Edwards truck. Both dogs would play with the family cat and even eat with the cat.
    She went on to become one of the top performers in pit history. Her brother Hoss was never campaigned, so may people do not realize that he was in fact as good or better than his sister Molly. To get very high calibre dogs out of one litter like that means there is more than pot luck here- its quality genes. Homer was one of three in a litter who all displayed deep gameness.

    ...part two of three or so...(EP)
     
    Robertosilva and niko like this.
  4. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Lots of truths there. Mr. Edwards was the breeder. His brother was more of the dog man. Mr. Edwards did a lot of experimentation with double sires of the same litter.

    He sold a lot of dogs to a lot of people. The number of people who said, "I got my first dog from Mr. Edwards", is huge. He sold enough dogs back them for Wilson Electric to call and ask him to cash his checks for the last few months so they could balance the books. He believed in low prices. "A $150 dog that was just sold is worth way more than a $500 dog still in the brood pen". A businessman's thought process I suppose.

    I recently met an older fellow who was doing dogs back then. He saw Molly Bee go three times. In the match mentioned above there was a special mouth fighting bitch that was handpicked to beat Molly Bee. The dogs were washed and brought to the pit. Mr. Edwards was trying to make his way to the pit when he heard release your dogs. When he got within steps of the wall there was a snap. Mr. Edwards said it sounded like a .22 rifle shot. When he leaned over the wall it was over. The hand picked bitch went into Molly Bee's mouth and had the top of her muzzle snapped in half way between the eyes and the nose. Broken in half. Mr,. Edwards said that was the only one he missed. JY told the same story as he was sitting pit side when it happened.

    My first dogs were bred down out of Molly Bee and Snooty and Snooty to Pool Hall Red. Meeting Mr. Edwards was a real pleasure. I enjoyed the conversation as much as anything.

    A lot of these dogs would destroy one and then walk away. I had one heavy down on the Molly Bee that a few of th eold timers said I had the recreation of Molly Bee. Nothing stayed with her more that 15 minutes. She was a murderer. She never scratched the first time. Not ever. Come across if you wanted to, but it was a bad thing when you did. Stay on your side and all is well. If country style was an option she would have been on top of the world. Ask her to scratch and it would be easier to save the time and mail the check.

    Good posts. I had not read that in quite some time.

    S
     
    david63 likes this.
  5. stinkrock

    stinkrock Top Dog

    Good read E.P. Also the addition AGK
     
  6. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    ??? Think you meant Slim. Lol
     
    treezpitz likes this.
  7. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    part 3...
    ...The question then is, CAN MOLLY BEE PRODUCE?
    The answer as we will see, is UNQUESTIONABLY, YES. In fact she happens to be one one of those dogs in which the strength of her genes remains productive for a couple of generations or more. In fact I personally believe she was the type that produced best in her grandchildren. Some dogs are that way you know. They produce better individuals out of their children, especially if their children are linebred or inbred. Molly was one of those.
    When she was seventeen months old, Molly was bred to Snooty. This was before we knew Snooty blood clicked with great with Eli blood.
    Molly Bees topside grand father was pure Eli. Mr.Edwards said he bred to Snooty for intelligence and ability, not especially for his gameness, like most.
    Tom Garner(whose dogs are considered some of the best in the world) has bred that Snooty Eli blood for years and says the same thing- Snootys best contribution is his intelligence and ability.
    ...The Snooty ex Molly Bee breeding produced three well known dogs, Red Lady(3x), Red Danger(4X), and Solid Junk(1x). Red Lady was bred to her brother Junk and produced Edwards Dusty. That was solid inbreeding. Now- watch this. Dusty was bred to Stephenson's Tumbler. Tumbler was a son of Molly Bee's father Ben, and his mother Diner was daughter of BIG BOY! This breeding produced a litter that had the following dogs: Pulley's Cotton(3x),Cutt's Willie(2x), Pulley's Black Lady(2x), Pulley's Missy(1x1xl). Thats nine wins and one loss in one litter (the loss was to a dog of the same blood). That breeding was very, very inbred BIG BOY. Any question about the gameness of that breeding?
    ...Another successful breeding is when Molly Bee was bred to Jarrett's Ceaser, Ceaser was one of the hardest biting dogs some people of those days had seen. He was a son of Thor(3x)(Snooty ex Miss Pool Hall Red) and his mother was Flint River Bootsie(Hyde's Rex ex Miss Pool Hall Red).
    Miss Pool Hall Red was of course another one of the female greats. Ceaser to Molly Bee produced Little Ceaser( aka Warp), a very well known bulldog and a great producer.
    ...This is very strong female line. You cant find this blood much anymore- but a breeder here in North Carolina has kept and inbred this blood for many years. He made molly Bee the foundation for his yard. I decided to study Molly Bee's bloodline intensively because my friend Rich Cupo who owns the legendary McGee's Panther and specializes in that blood has recently purchased the tightest Molly Bee dogs in the world (from North Carolina). This blood will not be available to the public, at least not in the immediate future. It is mentioned in order to provide
    a full article on Molly Bee, her progeny and her bloodline.
    ...This move was made of course because BIG BOY was bred almost identical to Zebo and panther is linebred on Zebo. Obviously BIG BOY and Molly Bee was patented blend. Since I deal mainly with Panther/Velvet blood, I wanted to find out more about Molly Bee's foundation bloodline. as I have mentioned in other articles , I have found wildside kennels computerized gamedog genetic data services very useful. Since Molly Bee happen to figure into my breeding plans i had a gene search done.

    part three of four or so,,,lol...(EP)

    Slim,,,I was waiting for you to chime in with another jewel,,, thanks...
     
    niko likes this.
  8. niko

    niko CH Dog

    Good post Elias! Like always a joy to read:)....seems like Mr Stevens had nothing but good things to say about your buddy TG lol;)
     
  9. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    not to mention this article is twenty plus years old,,,(94' gazzette)
    and I agree my buddy(lol)Garner deserves respect...

    I like the way Mr Stevens evaluates blood in great depth
    and I am sure reading things like this helped scope my understanding...
     
    niko likes this.
  10. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    Part 4...
    ...The results to me, point out the immense value of the gene search. When you look at a three generation pedigree of Molly Bee (even though no single dog pass three generations have much influence)- the high degree of inbreeding that influences our breed means that foundation blood can be a lot more important in planning breeding's that one might realize, It is obvious that Molly Bee's mother is double bred BIG BOY. But i found there is more BIG BOY than meets the eye, BIG BOY'S mother Greg's Lady appears two more times in the next two generations . Once in the form of Cooke's Toby who is Bullwinkle's brother (Bullwinkle who is BIG BOY'S half brother and was a popular catchweight dog in the Carolina's and is in Panther's pedigree)
    and secondly in the form of Cooke's Black Lady who was BIG BOY'S sister! Even more magnificent (to me) is the fact that Molly Bee is almost 50% Colby/ Cotton's Bullit blood! The bottom side of Molly Bee's father is pure Colby. BIG BOY'S mother Greg's Lady is half Colby. The bottom side of Molly Bee's mother is pure Colby /Cotton's Bullit except for that part of BIG BOY that isn't .
    ...By Colby, I mean the same Colby's Texas ( Colby's Tweedie, Dime, Penny, Rifle, Margie, etc...) that produced Redboy and Finley's Bo who was Jeeps Father. These dogs come to us from Howard Teal, Joe Medlin and Loposay. ALL North Carolina southern bred gamedogs. Also through Hetrick, Pete Sparks, Bass and many others, this same foundation blood has blended in, to produce more of our famous dogs than many realize. In Molly Bee's pedigree for example, the following Colby dogs appear with the number of times in the pedigree in parenthesis. Brandy (531), Buddy (139), Buffy (194), Dime (39), Flub Dub (347), Merle (195), Penny (37), Pupsy (337), Rifle (86), Tweedie (38). That is not all the Colby dogs, But it gives us an idea. the exciting thing to me is (since Velvet's father Morochito has BIG BOY and Bullwinkle in his blood) if you were to compare velvet's foundation on to Molly Bee, it was almost identical. The only difference is the Eli blood (in Molly Bee) vs Lightner blood (in Velvet).
    ...Of what value is this to the reader? I am sharing my personal experiences to point out the value of a thorough gene search in planning our breeding and to me, that if you have a Zebo, BIG BOY, Molly Bee or Ozzie Stevens Homer or Virgil blood, for example it blends great with Jeep and Redboy blood. Conversely, If you have Jeep or Redboy it goes great with these black hard biting Lonzo's Andy dogs (Zebo etc...).
    ...You don't hear much these days about Molly Bee so I thought an article about her career and her bloodline is deserving- SHE WAS TRULY A FABULOUS DOG!
    Part four out of four signed... Bob Stevens
     
    niko likes this.
  11. niko

    niko CH Dog

    Thanks Elias..good read brotha:)
     
  12. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Two issues with Molly Bee blood.

    First not enough breedings for the line to be carried forward as Molly Bee blood. Caesar and Snooty off spring were mixed and blended. Over time the "Molly Bee" dogs worked well with Red Boy is true. That was more so to the influx of the Snooty blood. She was an awesome match bitch, and always gets my vote as the bassest match dog of all time (for no more than it is worth), but her off spring took to the sire's half of the pedigree. We made some really good breedings and had some really nice dogs when the Molly Bee
    dogs were crossed with the Mims dogs (red boy-snooty). We always felt it was the Molly Bee's Snooty connection that clicked with the Red Boy blood moreso than the Red Boy blood clicking with the Colby or Bullet blood in Molly Bee. Pure opinion there.

    2nd and most importantly. If I had a dollar for every person that Mr. Edward's "trusted with the true breeding of Molly Bee" ......... I know several who were told they were the only one he ever told. Keep it it under your hat. Molly Bee was off of ___________ and ______________. You can fill in the blank. Mr. Edwards experimented with dual sires a lot as well. So many factors.

    With all that said. And to be contradictory to a point. All the Molly Bee dogs we had could bite, really bite. But the percentages of game dogs were really low. A lot like the Bullet dogs. I tend to lean toward her having a strong Bullet influence because Mr. Edwards put a lot of faith and time in Stoney. Bred him to all the bitches that were similarly bred to Molly Bee. I have always thought it was an attempt to get another Molly Bee. The Stoney dogs would bite shit in half but would not stay long enough for it to matter.

    Great read.

    S
     
    treezpitz, ELIAS'PISTOLA and niko like this.
  13. met mr edwards when i move to the south ten years ago really nice man and had a lot great info ended up with a female named jellybean which was was 3x stoney 3 crystal (heavy molly bee eli ) jellybean went on to produce in two litters 5winner 2 roms Have to give the credit to mr ewards and mrs poland wit the help of my red devil/corvino redboy cross just wanted to give mrs poland and mr edwards sum love
     
    treezpitz and ELIAS'PISTOLA like this.
  14. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Post the Jellybean pedigree. Interested.

    S
     
    ELIAS'PISTOLA likes this.
  15. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    As Always great contribution yourself and thanks for the good interaction that makes for a great thread...
    I wonder how Mr.Steven's Velvet crossed with the Panther and or Molly Bee blood???

     
  16. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I am not sure. I talked to Tarheel Matt for the first time at Tom's gathering. He bred a bitch to Fat Bill's Two Eyes and in turn that bitch was bred to Patrick's Kasai. I had two out of the litter that were exceptional. The male made its way back to the Tarheel' neck of the woods and he was said to be as good as it gets.

    Tarheel knew a lot of the Molly Bee type dogs I got started with back then and I am not sure if any direct crosses were made or whether the lines were ever connected.

    The guy that turned me onto the dogs was one of Mr. Edward's primary spots, if not the primary place, to place dogs. My buddy use to tell him what made you famous was "me and Molly Bee". He matched a bunch of those dogs back then. Tarheel talked of the Ch. Cotton dog and how he went in the bee hive for his championship. One of the better conditioned dogs he had ever seen.

    Stoney ended up there and Mr. Edwards made the call. He had been bred to every good bitch available and had yet to throw a bulldog. Not the first. This dog was bred to produce hard mouth-game dogs. Mr. Edwards said he did not. He made the call. They could bite but that was about it. My buddy always said if it were game it may be registered off Stoney but that was as close as the link that could be made. If the were off Stoney they were not checked and then crossed. Crossed to something that would make them scratch long enough for the devastating mouth to work would be the plan. The best example is when Poland's Jump Around was bred to Minnine (Mims bitch). This worked just as it was mapped out with Sabotage (2XW). She had a lot of mouth and a lot of desire to finish. Since we are partial to the Mims blood and me and my buddy saw so many Stoney dogs not make it, the impressive thing is how far Minnie carried that Stoney shit. LOL.

    This is not a down play on all the Bullet blood, as othet strains did very well. And it crosses well with the Red Boy dogs. And since Mr. Edwards put so much effort into the Stoney dog and other similar strains of Bullet blood I have always leaned toward that being the backing of Molly Bee. But Mr. Edwards enjoyed telling every body he 'trusted' the reall version of Molly Bee. In turn, there are a ton of real versions. I do not know any more than the next guy. But since he went heavy toward the Bullet stuff I would think that played a major role. I doubt he would make Molly Bee and then go in a different direction.

    Good series of posts.

    Helps me flash back to the days when I had sack enough to run up and down the road with reckless abandon.

    Sign of age I guess.'

    S
     
    Carolinacur and niko like this.
  17. c_note

    c_note CH Dog

    The Internet and 9/11 killed that. It was dying before, dead after those 2. You got big nuts to cross state lines doin dirt these days. Any kind. Heart doin 180 when you see a any crown vic shaped car lol. AC damn near can't keep you cool
     
    niko likes this.
  18. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Speaking of the Crown Vic. Just a funny story.

    I was walking a dog one day, harness hooked up to chains. There is a 6 acre patch of pines between me and the field I use. I come up from the woods and always purposely dropped the chain set up just before I came out of the woods. The one time I didn't I came out onto the dirt road and was walking up the path. The chain was making enough noise I did not hear anything. What I saw when I looked down was the head lights of a Crown Vic inching up beside me. I just about shit in my pants. I had a bulldog with some marks hooked to a set of chains. Everything I owned flashed before my eyes. As it pulled forward it was sister-n-law coming to visit the mother-n-law. I was never so happy to see her. I told her the teaks would be on me. LOL

    Crown Vic can strike fear.

    S
     
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  19. corvettedex

    corvettedex CH Dog Premium Member

    Great story, Out here in the country where I'm at now at the end of the paved Rd I live on, it comes to a stop sign with a dirt rd. If youtake a right it goes for 10 plus miles. If you go left it goes 5 miles before going back to a stop sign and paved roads. It's okay to drag chains here if it's a local sheriff patrol. Man I have seen guys working there hounds dragging a concrete cinder block. No joke. I can relate to a hound that's scared up. I feel like accidents can happen. My fiance and I were walking a pair of hounds a few months back, There is a leash law in Lexington county, however not many folks out here abide by it. We had a hound run out of its yard , cross the street and jumped on one of my hounds. My girl kept the female she was walking out of it. Not an easy task because we know how wound up the get when a fight has happened. The owner if the other hound after about 5 minutes came out to help me break them up. His hound was an old junk yard dog, and he was a people biter as well. We got my bulldog off his screaming mutt. Yet a little to late. His dog died that night. He didn't take it to the vet. So every day we walk by this...
     

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  20. Dig D

    Dig D Pup

    Is mr edwards still around
     

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