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THE IMPORTANCE OF A ROLL DOG

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by DISCOIII, Jan 6, 2017.

  1. DISCOIII

    DISCOIII Big Dog

    This thread is for historical purposes only, for me pre 1976 a roll dog had to have everything and what I mean by that is your roll dog should have all the qualities of a match dog. Things such as gameness, mouth, and will go from nose to tail not a one dimensional type of bulldog. Most men back then that I met in the beginning believed you had to get a leg dog or a stifle dog a head dog etc. but your roll dog should be all that and more. At that time I placed the same value on a roll dog as I did for a match dog. When visiting other men's yards they would show you there dogs and then get to there roll dog and would say he's just a plug a confident builder I would listen and I would think, to me you are setting your bar to low. As time went by from actual experience I found you should be starting your prospects with the best dogs you have on your yard it will learn more in a few min's with your best than 20 min's with a average dog. This has been proved to be true thru the years. Another thing and this more now than ever you should never show your cards to nobody, the best weapon you have is the unknown, the competition can't get a label on you. Get a good roll dog and do your home work in private and tell dog men you have to pay to see my dogs, which is a whole another thread. Back then a couple of my favorites, a dog named Cus seen a least 17 rolls was brought out into a dog named CH. Mojo who was sold to Germany after being skull dragged at 1hr 38 min by him with no teeth CH. Mojo beat two CH's before this, and another named Dude who went into a 5 x winner from a very well known kennel back then at 1:48 he scratched to some one in the crowd waving a hand kerchief and got counted out I would liked to mention here that there dog was a 1/2 a step in front of me all night and showed to be a dead game dog. This thread is about a roll dog and not game testing but more about grading a prospect. This is a open discussion so please contribute with your thoughts.
     
    ShonEast105, c-murda, vw mike and 2 others like this.
  2. promoe

    promoe Top Dog

    there a lot of truths to your post...but errr um imo, my best rolldog first time out would be like taking the sat's when you cant even read yet. you gotta make it thru k-12 before sending one off to college. everybody fucks different and I realize that. to me they have to learn how color inside the lines and fingerpaint before you hand them an open canvas. I call BS when folks say all I got is 100% killers. With a yard of 10-20 there is no way one would make it to to middle school unless they were lying to themselves. I keep preaching "keep you and your yard honest" it will take you further. on another note...im not a big fan of bad habits so pre76 I wouldn't school one out with a bunch of scrubs but I sure the fck aint gonna throw a virgin in with john holmes. might make for a good flick but there aint gonna be a sequel.
    some of them have IT at a young age some need a little help along the way. when working with a "family" of animals over 2,3,4 generations you get a good feel of what you are dealing with. throwin them to "bad bad leroy brown" first chance you get you will ruin more than you will get. you will end up with a few freaks that is it...ill bring my freak killer and take all your money in 45 and not have a tooth in him because he was properly schooled.
     
  3. DISCOIII

    DISCOIII Big Dog

    I have found the dog will arise to the occasion so set the bar high I seen a dog started on a pier then rolled later on his father GR CH Micky it was night and day the dog had to be his best to hang with him, and you are right I had a yard of up to 60 plus pups and only three were straight killers that would finish fast. And again you are right about I probably ruin more than I should have but the one's that made it could be open. Most of my matches back then were 1:30 or over different times different dogs.
     
    rodeoman069 and treezpitz like this.
  4. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I know a bunch who believed in the roll dog. I grew up in the dogs way back in the 70's as a kid. It is like any bad habit, you learn what you see. I thought everybody had bulldogs! So for me it was 'monkey see-monkey do' for a long time.

    He (and me for a long time) never had roll dogs or brood dogs or stud dogs. We had bulldogs. 10-12 dogs total. 8 or 9 open to the world at any time. He use to say, and one of my favorites, "All I need from anyone else is a weight and a date".

    The young dogs were not babied nor were they ruined early. When they were bumped it was on a dog that was waiting for his name to be called. Everything that was aspiring to be match quality was put on something that was match quality.

    With that said, another favorite, "You have to know what you are looking for before you know what you are looking at". And when I thought I had a grasp on that he would flip flop the sentence to fit what we were doing. It was called "crazy school' back then. We went to a place in rural NC. Pull up, go thru a privacy fence, eat as good a Sunday morning breakfast as one could imagine and then roll dogs set after set after set. A different time I know. A guy broke out a roll dog and within 20 minutes we determined this was not a roll dog but a match dog. We pooled the money, made some promises and bought him on the spot. He later became Ch. Macy. His second was back into the very man that called him a roll dog.

    I think now it was more of a mindset. Everything bulldog was geared toward Saturday night. I seen a few I would have loved to own but did not measure up to dog beside him. Tons of dogs went thru there that were not match quality but would have been excellent stud dogs, brood dogs, roll dogs etc. What few times he bred dogs he bred match dog to match dog. No other title other than match dog could hold down a chain spot.

    Fast forward to now. I can see a lot of holes in that thinking process. So many dogs that should have been bred were culled due to not being match quality. Back then culling had nothing to do with curs. Culling was all about eliminating anything that was not match quality. They were winners or dogs with a chance of being a winning dog. No other title could hold down a spot. Now I understand that they all can't be match quality and still serve a purpose, brood dogs, stud dogs, roll dogs, etc.

    Great topic.

    S
     
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  5. DISCOIII

    DISCOIII Big Dog

    Slim it's like you and me came down the same road as I think you have said it the best match dog to match dog look at the papers later.
     
    treezpitz likes this.
  6. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Later on I have learned that match dog to match dog is no real avenue to success. It always gave us the warm fuzzies but had little to with actual success. I'm no breeder by any means.

    I still like to know old mom and dad could go and get it but there are so many more factors.

    Even if we had bred a lot of dogs back then I am thinking our success rate would have been less than favorable. We had scatter bred dogs and that elusive freak always had a chain spot. The scatter bred dogs and freaks seldom produce. We had a hodge-podge of dogs back then. Hard mouthed, game enough dogs that took well to the keep. Our plan was simple. Put something on you so hard, so fast with a ton of mouth that the pace and intensity would make you buckle in 55-60 minutes. We had a number of dogs that had everything except the work ethic. Culled those too, and with that mindset there would not be much of a chance to sustain a group of dogs.

    S
     
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  7. DISCOIII

    DISCOIII Big Dog

    Well I should have been more clearer I guess, my dogs were family bred with out crosses to back then a son of King Soloman and a daughter of Eli Jr and Little Java that put punch in all his pups he sired litters up till 13 years old
     
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  8. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Breeding match dog to match dog within a family is a much better recipe for success than simply breeding match dog to match dog.

    He, then me, bred a few dogs here and there and the successes were OK but nothing to shout from the mountain top. Back then it was a show every weekend somewhere. As a kid I hated to see the truck pull out of the yard. My best friend and I camped in the barn on those nights so we would be up when the truck came back home. That spot was where two or three guys worked their dogs. There was always one or two or three hooked and being worked. That was my first impressions of having bulldogs and being in the game.

    Breeding never really factored in to all that. A bitch was bred if she came in late March, early April. She could have the puppies and be back into shape before the fall. If they did not bounce back they were placed with the breeder in trade for something with a chance. When they were too old to perform they were traded off fr something with a shot.

    So for me it was never about the right way or wrong way, or best way, it was everything is about match dogs on Saturday night/Sunday morning. I came along thinking everybody thought that way.

    In turn I missed out on a lot with breeding, raising pups, selection, etc. etc. In those areas I am still in the learn mode.

    S



     
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  9. DISCOIII

    DISCOIII Big Dog

     
  10. Naustroms

    Naustroms CH Dog

    I stopped believing in the necessity of roll dogs or bringing dogs up around lower quality dogs. Just became a waste of time, money, and food. My philosophy is the dogs see something real when they're ready and mature enough. Sometimes they need more rolls than others before it clicks but I'm not waiting until they start looking good on a lesser quality animal than my standards.

    "Roll dogs" for me are just prospects that aren't hooked, match dogs that aren't hooked, or retired dogs...that aren't hooked. And that's not to sound macho. I just don't think i can ruin a mature dog and coddling one serves no purpose.

    The dog either has it or it doesn't. And it's better to find out how good it is than keeping it under a pillow. I've never known a dog to be ruined by being put on another good dog. That's usually just nostalgia. Looking back and wondering what might have happened. But truth is we don't know. The dog someone thinks got ruined could've gone through 10 different levels of practice partners and still came up short. There's no way of knowing. But I know that the dogs that show me what I want to see against the standard I'm holding are good ones.
     
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  11. DISCOIII

    DISCOIII Big Dog

     
  12. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Very well said. I agree 100%.

    I guess looking back I think we would have been better off if we had let a few of those dogs become brood dogs/stud dogs at our house instead of elsewhere.

    There are a ton of these dogs that will play tot he level of their competition. A lot will do just enough. If they do not see really good competition at home they will be overwhelmed when riding up and down the road. "He/she never looked like that before". Can be translated to he handled a bunch of scrubs til this time out.

    A lot of times when a kennel rolls out winning dog after winning dog it is because those winning dogs were proofed around other winning dogs.

    S







     
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  13. tattooit

    tattooit Pup

    We always had so many young dogs at our disposal in our circle that we were lucky to never have a need for one.

    We typically always had a dog available that fit the means for whatever end we were trying to accomplish.

    Starting up a yearling? We had some who couldn't just a grape but would storm them like a hurricane.

    Need to stretch one out? We had a veteran that would scratch all night.

    Got a killer that bites like a Raptor? Bring in the head dog that could dance like Michael Jackson and frustrate the hell out of them.


    There is DEFINITELY a huge advantage in having big yards at your disposal when schooling. The only downside is that you get to see a lot of dirty laundry, and people get to see yours. Can't always guarantee that what gets seen will stay in the room.

    I've seen countless dogs who went on to become pretty "famous" Ch's, that could of been beaten had the other side brought a different style dog.

    Fictiously speaking of course
     
    tgjwblack, budgee, HurstmobC and 4 others like this.
  14. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Without a doubt. But that is subjective thinking. We think one could beat another but we do not know because it did happen. We can only truly speak to what we have seen not what we think we would see.

    Ozzie Stevens once told us, "I can't tell you what he will do next time, but I can tell you what he did last time, and based on what he did last time, I will bet on him next time". Or in so many words.

    Agreed. Big yards have their advantages. We had three or four small yards and we combined resources. Sort of the best of both worlds.

    S
     
  15. tattooit

    tattooit Pup

    Truth. And it's why I'd never throw dirt on any of those dogs who I felt were beatable/made suspect moves, regardless of how big a name they went on to gain.

    No matter what I thought, fact is, if it didn't happen, so no sense in speculation.
     
    tgjwblack likes this.
  16. promoe

    promoe Top Dog

    Come on naus we know you be coddling over there lol ! I don't think I have ruined an adult ..but I have rendered limbs,muzzles and disemboweled a few young'ns. IMO proper schooling will eliminate a lot of that. By no means do I think taking the easy road in the backyard is a way to do things. When I use the term "rolldog" I am referring to the 1, 2 or 3 that get taken off the chain in a heartbeat. The ones that you have full confidence in and wont teach bad habits.

    Good post btw..Agreed everything should get used or it is a waste of time,food and money.
     
    DISCOIII likes this.
  17. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Once upon a long time ago I showed up with a 1st time out male. The other people at the picnic did not like the menu and bailed. They paid their half of the grocery bill. We watched the next two go after one another in a BBQ cook off. Two were going for the BBQ Pitmaster title. I tasted both recipes and they both would not hold a light to the baby back ribs I brought. Being young and mouthy I let them know that my ribs would spank one of them at 9Pm and the other at 9:45.

    Like a dummy I sold my recipe. My recipe went to the back yard of the two pit masters. They called back and told me I had not lied and they would like to buy all the BBQ sauce I had as well as the ingredients that made the BBQ sauce.

    After maturing a little I would collect my half of the picnic money and keep my mouth shut. When I was younger that was hard to do.

    I would never throw dirt either.

    S





     
  18. tattooit

    tattooit Pup

    Man, I think we've all been there! I'd love to share a VERY similar story about the first hog we ever brought out. But out of respect for the very well known folks who were generous enough to even go into us (being the noobs we were), I'd never never publicly recant that one.

    Great story though. Lol
     
    DISCOIII likes this.
  19. F.D.

    F.D. Top Dog

    "You have to know what you are looking for before you know what you are looking at" - from slim12's post above. That's appropriate for a lot of different situations with dogs, from performance to showing. You have to see a really good example in action before you can develop useful criteria for judging dogs.
     
    c-murda likes this.
  20. pastorD

    pastorD Pup

    It is a concept that gets misunderstood and abused as a result of that. I think many good dogs got wasted in the name of them being 'roll dogs'. I also think a lot of dogs that shouldn't have been there in the first place go through a living hell because they are labelled 'roll dogs'. Hypothetically speaking of course I would have to say that is why people who were into this kind of thing back in the day really got to know their line and when they tend to show face. Again hypothetically never seen the down side of waiting till an animal is between two and three. That way you have a better chance of the animal switching on and also eliminate the need for a 'roll' dog because if a dog is two or three years old it either handles itself into a seasoned hog or it doesn't. Informative post.
     

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