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The Origin of the Pit Bull?

Discussion in 'APBT History' started by Mouser, Mar 29, 2006.

  1. Mouser

    Mouser Big Dog

    Hoyden, I'm sure you are a really nice person, and your girl is a cutie, but I wouldn't recommend one for her. They are not turned like a pit bull, and can be snappy. Agility or flyball are both good things, but I don't know of any folks breeding working terriers, that would sell to a non-hunting home, or even a home that's main priority wasn't hunting. Try a good bred JRT, they are easier to find, cheaper, and everyone has already seen them. Good luck with your daughters pup. Mouser
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2006
  2. pennsooner

    pennsooner CH Dog

    I'm inclined to go with the "original Bulldog" with a little terrier influence thrown in. But I don't think it was a 50/50 mix to make a new breed of dog. But rather some addition to modify an already existing dog. I've owned a terrier and they are very different from the Pitbulls I've been around. Pitbulls don't really go to ground and they don't act like terriers.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2006
  3. Mouser

    Mouser Big Dog

    Pennsooner, I've been around alot of both, that they are similar in alot of ways. If you bring up a bulldog in an environment where they can hunt, and learn to use their nose they are excellent at it. Alot of guys I know use bulldogs to hunt with their small terriers as draw dogs, and protection in case of coyotes while out. Most of my friends don't use a gun to hunt with, and if one is used, it's usually just a 22 pistol. I've seen bulldogs buried up to their rears in holes in the ground trying to get too game, so just cause you haven't seen it, don't mean it ain't so. Here's a couple of pics of what I'm wanting, the first is a terrier with a good dose of bull blood, he's not my dog. The second is a dog of old, they would have been better off all staying this small, if they had do you think we would have all the problems we are seeing today???? I don't think so. I predict in the not too distant future Pit Bulls will be illegal to own, or insurance will be so high that no one can afford them. I'm going to try and breed something with the same heart, but in a smaller package. Mousr
     

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  4. Hoyden

    Hoyden Top Dog

    We did some research, made some calls to Germany and England and figured out that a Patterdale isn't a good dog for her.

    So, when we're ready I'll have to find a small Stafforshire Terrier or an American Pitbull Terrier for her. Debating on letting my cousin ship one over from Ireland for her.
     
  5. Mouser

    Mouser Big Dog

    I'd go with the Staffie, the ones I've been around are great with kids, and come in a smaller package as a general rule. Best of luck, and show us some pics, especially if it comes from Ireland. Mouser
     
  6. pennsooner

    pennsooner CH Dog






    Mousr: First off, I love small game terriers. Neat dogs. Once Pitbulls got to the US and started doing jobs outside of the Pit, like being an overall farm dog, they got bigger. I think the dogs that were first bred just for dog fighting in England might have had more terrier mixed in since the early records of dogs coming over tended to be really small. I'm just not convinced thats true of the breed as a whole. A lot of the pics I see in books of bullbaiting dogs look like modern Pitbulls.


    I don't think we are headed for comprehensive breed bans. It might seem that way at times but America still loves Pitbulls, as a whole. I think you will see large areas where bans occur, however.
     
  7. Bump..


    To trace dog we need to trace people and were people migrated...
    At the very start there was four types of domedicated dog skull structure..any other type was a mix of these skull types..
    A reclassification of all dog breeds needs to be considered here in...
    The word "Mastiff"means a large mutt..so to discribe this particular group in this text; I.E.the mastiff group(and pit Bulls are inclued in this group) I shall use the term "Catch Dog"...

    Head types :
    Brachycephalic (Broad headed -the Catch Dog group)
    Mesocephalic (medium broad headed -the Scent Hound group)
    Dolichocephalic (narrow headed-the Sight Hound group)
    Lupoides (ranging in all these Skulls-the Spitz group)

    All these types would of been used for fighting, ,not necessarily bred for fighting..
    The first of these skull types to appear is the Brachycephalic type-broad headed type -Catch Dog group...by about a 1000 B.C.all these Skull types.all four types.were known in different parts of the world.by about 500 A.D all these Skull types were known the world over...
    There is clear evidence that them first skulls -the Catch Dog group,were the first of these dogs to be known as fighting dogs..there are clear inscriptions of two dogs fighting with two men handling them,that were found in the 1950s or a little earlier, somewhere by Iran, that were dated from Assyrien times witch is around 1500-500 B.C....
    It's highly likely these first dogs were kept pure in that massive land of Asia for around 5000 years.spreading across Asia- that is-West -with there mighty master tribes who were also masters of mighty Horses...(pure breeding and out breeding is hardly new)

    So about 5000 B.C it was the Sumaria people who developed this dog.these were decsent from 5000 B.C.to 2000 B.C(3000 years)passing there knowledge of there dogs and horses down to the Babyloinion people. who, in turn, passed there knowledge down to the Assyrien people who passed there Knowledge down to the Alant people......this breed was native to Asia-around the wide districts of Persha...it is,in fact,the first breed of dog...not the Sight Hound.

    It was traded,and by the time the Romans invaded Britain,they made great use of this dog in there conquests..this dog was not found on Britain and it was not native to that land.it was a native to Asia...
    A discovery was found that no heavy head dog skulls were found in Britain befor the Romans invaded it,but plenty of hound and sight hound skulls were found..

    It needs pointing out the Celtic inhabitants of Britain fought there dogs and there chickens..so when the Romans introduced this new stock it's inevitable that Britain became a hot bed for breeding this type. ....

    If we speed up a bit ,this new breeding stock gave rise to the Baiting dogs-witch eventuality became known as the Bulldog...

    It was sometime like 1800 when reports say that terrier blood was added to the pit dogs..theres not much proof to suggest that this cross had a influence on the pit dogs.but there is proof to suggest the cross happend for what ever reasons. .
    Pit bull Terrier????..
    Would it matter if a dog what had not changed since time begone had some terrier added?..is this a good reason to call them terriers?-I don't think so...as it was a certain type for millennium's.....admittedly down the ages it's been used for different things.at the start Lions (the Sumaria people were pretty mutch obsessed with killing Lions with men and dogs)to the Baiting of animals down the ages to fighting men....to the dog pits.....
    All these tasks ask for a dog to hold!-witch is why I grouped this group as CATCH DOGS.....

    In North America and Europe, the Catch Dog group is labeled as Mollessi???....but the Mollessi were from a totally different place to Persa...the Sumaria people were known millennium's before the Mollessi ....the Mollessi had dogs of the sight hound or sent hound group(it seems unclear witch-maybe both? )and huge Sheep dogs to protect there sheep from wolves...they never had catch type dogs..
    The labeling of the Catch Dog group as Mastiff is all so inappropriate.as the word Mastiff"mears in the dictionary a large dog of mixed breeding..tho Schneider, in dogs of the world 1963 ..says the term mastiff translates in Latin to "mansuerus"witch means domesticated ...witch is surly appropriate if this group was the first group of dogs!....but the dictionary says it means mixed large dog.and it's meant that for about 400 years.....
    CATCH DOG GROUP.
    Soze.

    'The probability is that he (I. e.the mastiff)owes his origin to some very remote ancestor of alien strain.The assyrian kings possessed a large dog of decided mastiff type,and used it in the hunting of Lions and for the capture of wild horses......the name mastiff was applied to any massively built dog.
    The complete book of the dog by Robert Leighton.1922.

    "The Medes,Albanians,Gelonians and Hyrcanians,as the verious breeds of Assyrien Mastiffs were called in after times,came from north of Persa and the wide districts witch extend between the Caucasus and the shores of the Caspian Sea,and there apears to have been some thing about this wild region witch enabled it's hounds to retain there supremacy for long ages afterwards".
    'De Canibus,Dog and Hound in Antiquity' by RHA Merlin, 1971.

    '....Mastiffs from Tartary,Molossians from Epirus,Hounds from Flanders.....' Betteloni 1800.

    'Why should the broad-mouthed breeds be robbed of two thousand years of history by scholars who no little of dogs?' David Hancock.the Mastiffs,big game hunter's.2000.

    'There is some evidence to dispute Dunbars claim that the breed was originally developed to gard flocks for there is proof that both the Assyriens and the Egyptians ran "bobbery packs"of mixed dog breeds,the faster ones being required to run the prey beast down and the more powerful ones being used to seize,hold or kill the quarry'.
    Brain Plummer.The Development of the Dog.1995.


    Just thought ide bump some history up folks...
    Soze.
     
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  8. Damn ,that’s some history there Soze,great reading ,I need to get further down the rabbit hole,new to bulldog history and have taken in what Richard Stratton has said on history of the breed,one thing stuck in my mind ,he said that Lightners ..forgive me I can’t remember his first name,family had bulldogs/Apbt before the civil war,if true,is that the earliest records of the breed in America?
    Atb
     
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  9. William Joseph Lightner.
     
  10. Ah ...ok ...realise now that the bulldogs had already come to the U.S from Ireland,and William Lightners family had these before the Civil War because they were already there !catching up!!
     
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  11. Its probably true that Bulldogs were there before the civil war..remember now,that around that time they were all "Bull Dogs".no matter what land they came from..werther or not these "Bull dogs"around the civil war time were the pit bred "Bulldogs"from England,Wales,Scotland,Ireland-i dont no.and I cant say. (Seems like I need to do some more research on the civil war!-or could somebody share some info please?:ide much appreciate it thanks!)...but there is drawings of the civil war,and the dogs on them drawings do look identical to the modern day dogs...there is also many references to matchers in the states from around 1850.+....there are references in England from even earlier(1825)of "good bull and bear dogs being shown in the pit before ther departure to forign climates"...I dont no if America was one of these climates-but it seems likely!...

    I do share Strattons opinion that the APBT is a pure undiluted "Bull Dog"(or tho "Baiting dog"is most probably the right term)...and that dogs of this particular form(identical) have looked like this for around 500 years.....

    I belive Stratton may well be correct in his belive that the Lightner familiy had dogs before the civil war-infact,I have no doubts what so ever about that!..its also very true,and worthy of note,that many Scottish familys also emigrated to the sorthern states with there fighting dogs,fighting skills,and Whiskey distinling knowledge(for you bro if ya reading this!).from between 1750 up till about 1900.(The Highland Clearances)...

    So Bulldogs have been in the states for a long time..and they have made or contributed to make,many other breeds known today..

    Hope this small bit helps @old duffer?..

    If anybody could post some stuff on the civil war(particularly any thing to do with dogs)..ide be most greatfull..Thanks. ..
    Soze
     
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  12. Great reading ,input,I think you’re spot on with the baiting dog reference,probably lots of this blood both here and what was taken over during the 1800,s that was not being used to there original function that became the beginnings of other bull breeds. I don’t do much personally with what I have but I do like to know there fit for purpose and can do a days work,I had some money burning a hole in my pocket so picked a Lakeland as always fancied one!Sires Irish import,Dams welsh bred family line,I had the offer of a Patterdale from a line I knows works well,so I might come to regret my descision,mates been at the digging some 40 years and I said do you think she’ll do a days graft ,he replied we can but hope lol.Anyway,glad to find this site, plenty of well informed history on the real bulldogs,rich history this breed has,and seems too consume some of us,learnt more on Ed Reid’s dogs in the last few weeks and yet been mentioning his name on and off for
    last 25 years or so and really new nothing.I had a few periodicals of his back early nineties and remember Al Capone on a cover,from what I’m reading though Skipper seems have been his best dog ,I’ll read on!I don’t see much descent types about South East Uk but this lad caught my eye.Atb Duffer
     

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  13. I remember seeing Al Capone on that cover years ago.i used to think;wow thats one awesome looking dog.lol...
    cropped ears and ide be like yeah thats a mean looking fucker Lol..tho im far from a fan of cropped ears...

    That red Lakey looks nice in your avatar..ill take it thats the one you speak of?.....gotta have some old Middleton blood in it that?..got that old irish terrier look to it.looks big.strong.good jacket. ..
    I heard of a guy that Gary died years ago,and theres none of his dogs left?,not sure how true that is?
    Be a great shame if it were..because Lakelands are top(or were)working dogs..that were developed in a hard environment. And deserve to carry on as a working dog and not become a fluffy lap dog.
    hope they work out for you.

    Soze.
     
  14. My sentiments entirely mate,I really hope she does go,solid parents,working earths,bit vague as to bloodlines,I’ll be happy if there’s some Middleton blood in there,she’s a big girl 14inches and heavy @8months,works there if she wants it,get her out New Year .You have some knowledge Soze,you remember that cover too,was great back in the day to see his confirmation,cropped ears topped of what I thought was the must have dog,later realised game had nothing to do with your ears lol.Read a little on the Highland clearances,didn’t know a lot of Scots went with the Irish from 1820 on,so 40 years before the Civil War,should of known about the Clearances Great Grandfather marched down south here on the Jarrow marches,being evicted runs in the family!Back to the thread,I see there’s already been a thread about Jack Burke’s dogs,seem to be the earliest bloodline documented I think ? Found this photo of William J Lightners foundation bitch,or one of them ,and was apparently a precursor to the Old Family.Dont know if there’s any history out there on Williams Father.
     

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  15. Meant to add this ,think this was the cover photo picture Soze,atb
     

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  16. Same here about being evicted lol!..
    Cool about your grandad on the march.

    Yep!thats the dog porn cover of al capone lol.that ide stir at for hours saying to me self" I want one!...

    That lightener dog I aint ever seen so thank for sharing. .
    the other photo on eds mag with the man and dog is most intresting indeed.I think it was on the frount of some sporting paper from around 1910..and if my memory serves me right im sure that dog on that cover was from Newcastle..not Staffordshire.
    I could be a little of,and I cant find the original paper anywere.and I been looking for it for years..but im sure that dog was from Newcastle!
    Its intresting to note that most people belive that old dogs were smaller..obviously there was a lot of smaller ones back then.maybe traces of terriers in there line?maybe the way they fed was a little of knowlege wise?
    but they clearly came in all size ranges as they do now..that dog with that man looks big-around 60lbs ide say?..thanks for sharing that!and any more info on that pic ide be most greatfull. ...dose any one know were Ed Reid got that photo?!?

    I belive Burks strain is very old..hes mentiond in the colby book and it says in that book his partner was Boutell and both were born around 1850-so yeah!one of the oldest most probs..
    I belive lightener dogs were the old family dogs.i belive diffrent familys or lines from lightners dogs ended up being labled(probs many years later)old family red noses-rather then just lightner dogs.for whatever reasons.

    Hope yer lakeys work out mate.
    YIS
     
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  17. Cheers Soze,maybe someone has some knowledge about those early Lightner family dogs?
    Atb Duffer
     
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  18. Im not sure mate?-hope someone tunes in... .
    type in on the serch bar and see what comes up..enything good pops up,bump the tread.
     
  19. 9F9FFEE2-1FDB-49E5-874A-43F8D7B875C4.jpeg Found this information,a lot over my head but had heard of Cockney Charlie and his Pilot.Cannot find much at all yet on Jack Burke,photos or images ,would liked to have seen that very small Rafferty dog of his.
     

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  20. For you Old Duffer....

    Inported Raffety.
    This little 14 pounder fought over a dozen battles with none lasting over 40 minutes.This dog had a strong desire to kill,and would allow himself to go under a dog in order to get his disired throat hold.
    When Rafferty arrived in America he was one of a shipment of five dogs.He was ruputed to be the best dog in England,and was valued at 100 pounds.He was sold because no matches could be found for him.When the dog arrived the English owner wrote to say that he had found a match,and desired to buy the dog back.Raffertys new owner,Jack Burke,would not give him up,and Rafferty became a house dog aswell as a fighting dog,and had the liberty of Burkes house at 175 Albany street in Boston.


    Boutelle and Burke.
    To anyone who was a student of the early history of the breed,the names of John(Jack)Burke and James A Boutelle stand out.Both Jack Meeks,in his book "Memories of fighting dogs"and George Armitages "Thirty years of fighting dogs",mention Burke and Boutelle.
    Burke was one of three brothers from Boston who with there sister keeping house,none ever married.
    He died in 1904 and we assume he was born around 1850.He fought as many dogs as anyone-prided himself on how to condition or shape a dog,and was no doubt one of the top ten dogmen Boston ever produced.Some of his dogs,the inported Rafferty,and Burkes Tanner,a winner of several battles,were some of the good ones he owned,and they are responsible for,and back in the breeding of ,the dogs in and around Boston before the turn of the century.
    John Burke,at some point,teamed up with James Boutelle of Providence,RI,and they were partners for some 25 years,as there business card will attest.They had a dog called"The Gladstone".."The Gashouse Dog"..The Peg(a female),and "The Pig",a winner in three hours and fifteen minutes. Gladstone was named after a political leader of England and member of parliament for 60 years. He assisted in repealing the "Corn Laws"so that the people of Ireland would not starve.No wonder the Irish held him in such asteem!
    Thw Gladstone had the dubious distinction of losing two money fights.In 1893 he lost to Barny Fagans "Sport"in 57 minutes-when the referee allowed the claim of a dead dog and pronounced Sport the winner.A most unusual outcome since Gladstone later got up that same night and went back home to Providence.A little over 60 days later,he was matched at catch weights and lost to Jack Morrels "Barnum"...This was after being declared "dead" two months earlier.
    James Boutelle was a educated man,and praised by Armitage,Meeks,and others who knew him as a honest dog man and respected for his knowledge on the fighting game.Again we can assume he was born around 1850 and when in his 80s lived in New Bedford,MA.Armitage recived a letter from Boutelle in 1935 wishing him well with his book that was published the following year.


    Taken from Louis Colbys book "American Pitbull Terriers"1997.


    Hope this helps or intrests you Old Duffer?-its took me fucking ages to right on the this shitty phone lol....

    all the best mate.
    Soze.
    YIS.
     
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