Vindicator - is the story really true?

oldguy I have often wondered about that myself Bullyson Being the sire of Honeybunch.Heard stories of Carver Iron head being Honeybunch sire

 

I don't know where the rumour about Zebo being out of Boudreaux Eli started? I remember in his book 'Dogs of Velvet and Steel' Bob Stevens mentioned it, and stated that Zebo was a clone of his sire (Lonzo's Andy)

Two of my old pals lived with both Bobby Hall and Bob Stevens in Texas when they travelled over there to buy Hall's Champion Old Swamper.. Zebo got mentioned in conversation, but neither Bobby Hall or Bob Stevens mentioned Zebo being sired by Eli.. After visiting Texas, they went to stay at Fat Bill's place, done the full bulldog tour and among other historic people and places, they visited the barn where Lonzo schooled Zebo and Vindicator, once again no mention Zebo was sired by Eli and by the time they got back to UK, someone had already started a rumour about Swamper being a papered up replacement for the real Champion Swamper that got sent to Thailand anyway haha!

Another thing always struck me was at the very height of Bullyson and Eli jnr fame, Texas dogmen was jumping on the Boudreaux Eli gravy train, while up north in NC there's a killing dog called Zebo never quit like bullyson, and a 7xw compared to Eli jnr who was a 2xw, what's it do for Texas puppy sales if someone starts a rumour about Zebo being sired by Boudreaux Eli?

I spoke to Lonzo Pratt loads of times and don't think he'd keep any Texas dog sired by Boudreaux Eli, he just didn't need them.. Lonzo's Andy (black) sired by Larry McRaw's Snowball (black) who was sired by Tudors Dibo (red) who's grand dam (hubbards lena) was black and looked like a zebo bred dog.. Clayton's Eli Jnr was black and produced GR.CH.Art (red) who produced Adam's GR.CH. Mike (red..) So does that mean GR.CH. Art was sired by Lonzo's Vindicator?

 

Adam's GR.CH. Mike

 

This is what I tried to get at in my last post, don't know if I dragged it out too much (usual for me) but Bullyson and Eli jnr became so famous around Texas, there could be hundreds of dogs papered up as being off them, purely on the basis they sold easily, well at least they did until Bullyson stopped!

 

I have a 5 month old dog whose dam has a couple of those Colby dogs in her pedigree. Molly-bee I know for sure. When I finally got to talk to the family the husband mentioned the rugged cross but I believed it to be before Jeep. Could that term have been used before? It was a real honor talking to them. They have been breeding bulldogs that are down from Lightner red dogs and Colby dogs for almost 80 years. They have never used a registry and even said they despise them as they are more about making money than making good dogs. I guess I could agree with that if you could trust that every breeder is going to keep honest accurate records. I believe they did and have been for all these years. Some of their dogs were are sold without papers if they felt they would not better the breed. My pups dam was one of those dogs that was 90% white and didn’t make the 15% color cut off. After her second litter the request for her pedigree was requested and granted but not notorized and stamped with the family seal. That makes my dog a halfbred mutt officially but unofficially he’s down from some good stuff.

They shared a picture with me from 1925 that had the matriarch’s father with what she believed was one of his first bulldogs. It was a Colby dog according to her. Back then were pedigrees kept privately or were there registry’s that existed for these dogs? If registry’s existed what good were they if a Maurice Carver type was submitting the pedigrees?

This topic has bothered me a bit as I have continued to research my theory that ole Vindicator was sold to a Dr in Corydon IN and made his way to the mountains of western VA.
It also has caused me issues as I’ve tried to track down some of the breeders family’s and stories that are in my Great Grandfather’s journals when he was into dogs. I’ve had a couple of the old timers I’ve spoke to ask me why I continue to chase dust in the wind, stating that good dogs are where u find them and no pedigree going back 60 years is likely to be accurate anyway. My answer to that however, is that if there are more folks out there like the ones who bred my pups Dam I believe that I can accurately trace back the dogs and families that are of interest to me.

I’m rambling now but if I may offer up just one little bit of advice to anyone who reads this. If you have the chance to pick an old timers brain do it and do it well. They won’t be around forever and one day you may wish you had asked that question that the answer went to the grave along with the old timer. And if it’s a granddad or family member the time will always be looked back on as precious.

 

I never knew Lonzo Pratt well enough to say he was honest, or sold dogs that were bred as presented.. Don't know either if Vindicator died of heartworms, got hit by a car in the street, or lived to a ripe old age in secret on a yard somewhere? I do know Lonzo was a real dogman who sent a female that was 100% guaranteed show quality, what more could anyone expect from someone they never met, who lived on the other side of the Atlantic ocean?

I once had a friend called Yarrakin Lad (campaigned CH.Curstopper) he always gave me dogs with no papers which was fine since I wasn't betting on Yarrakin's honesty as a breeder, but on his eye for a bulldog! He gave me a son of Curstopper called 'Bracken' that became a 1xw.. Three times I asked about Bracken's dam and always got a different answer.. More important sometimes than ink names on a piece of paper is to ask first, who bred the dog and why?

 

I enjoyed the read....Nice history @OG.

 

why is zebo not thught by many to be sired by andy ? they looked very similar. its always the great ones that have their pedigrees questioned, nobody wants to take credit for the garbage.

 

Right

 

Slim , you don't remember back in 2009 10 11 12 13 14 , ect
That old saying was a very well known member who has been around for many many years. "TDK" I quote a few I know by heart:.. Always write your breeding plans in pencil ! More important than a pedigree is who bred the dogs and why ! Dont get caught up In chasing dead dogs- ( kennel blind ) my personal favorite is, I can explain the Real of it to you, but I can't understand it for ya ! You can't teach patience...

 

The question is would the dogs be of better quality had everyone been truth and honest with each other?

 

It's true @slim12 I'm too thick in thick to come up with anything that even could be considered profound! Had a mountain of advice (and patience) from one of the Great Lakes dogmen.. When I was still obsessed with legend names on a pedigree, he told me the key to breeding is 'selection'.. Keep it simple and put as many achievers as you can get inside the first 3 generations..

I know Lonzo crossed his dogs with Snooty, he tried sending me some of them and was high on them too! IMO it takes us back to the question of whether (or not) Zebo was sired by Boudreaux Eli? Zebo was probably the most successful dog Lonzo ever bred.. If he was an Eli dog, then why didn't Lonzo just stick to the formula instead of crossing to Snooty? http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=39318

 

Truth and honesty a common characteristic in pit bulls mate, sadly not in humans!

 

Looking at pedigrees I just come to the conclusion people lie about wins also. Duh!? Who bred the dogs and why? Solid

 

Junior was no thief. Floyd gave junior Eli becuz he had no use for Eli at the time an felt he had better. His words