cesar milan

A check is a fairly quick 'tug' of the leash, usually with the dog wearing a 'quick' collar [like a choker or a prong]. My dog has a choker, I know some people don't like them, or prongs... It really all depends on the dog's personality, as well as breed. I would never use any sort of choker or prong on the neck of a sighthound [which I think I've seen CM do? that's a huuuge no-no, their necks are very sensitive!], but I'd probably go with a prong for a 100+ pound Rottweiler. If you don't like using either, a buckle collar works just as fine, it really depends on how hard you check. I'm not saying CHOKE the dog, because doing it too hard can cut off the dog's air way for a sort time which... obviously isn't good? lol.

But uh I'm like, writing a novel here. You get the idea. And when I say it depends on the dog's personality; a dog that quickly wants to please his owner doesn't need check after check after check, just a quick one, and he'll get it. A more 'stubborn' dog may need a firmer check, but again, not an abusive one.

 

thats what i thought it was thanks for clarifying. i have been reading online and it turns out that more people than ceasar use the dog whisperer method, they are all a little different, but the basics are the same, it is prety much learning how to read your dog

 

i never had any problems with my dogs and all i use is common sense like what jelet said..... they do good praise em ... they do wrong scold em... all my dogs have been very loyal, maybe except for my one redboy dog is a bit stubborn.. i also have a very stron g bond with my dogs ... we hunt together we train together they dont act or do something i want , the know a repecussion is coming... but like i said i bond with evrey dog i own to the max..... good quailty time and i dont mean sitting on the couch watching tv or takin a walk down the street

 

There are a few things that CM preaches that aren't so bad. Then there are other things he does and ways that he trains that are completely elementary that we have moved SO far beyond that it shows his lack of understanding in dog behavior. At least to those who have spent the time studying it.

Learned helplessness, flooding, alpha rolling, and many of the ways he delivers corrections are incorrect and unproductive for the dogs mentality. The only thing they are good for is fixing the problem short term. There is one thing that most don't understand about aggression, especially DA. DA is something made out to be a 'bad thing' by the public when ultimately it's a silly thing to be so upset about. We, as APBT owners most of the time readily accept this trait. Where as most owners expect their dogs to live happily ever after with fluffy the cat and their nasty, snippy chihuahua that sparks the fights. (but is hardly ever corrected)...

I actually just watched a show the other day where a family had a GSD that was going after a smaller dog they had and nearly killed it. So they confined the GSD to the backyard. The GSD was clearly working of prey drive and all CM managed to do was surpress the drive..and didn't correct the smaller dog who was posturing and starting it all in the first place. That's the thing about DA and Prey Drive. You can not eliminate it you can only work to desensitize to stimulation and manage it. That is what he does with his DA cases. He suppresses the aggression. The problem is by no means 'solved' instead it is just merely waiting for the right time to pop up again, most likely when the owners get a little too comfortable and leave the two with problems alone together. That's when you get these stories about dogs who "just snapped." You suppress a drive or a problem long enough and you may end up with some very large issues because you never actually dealt with it in the first place.

What is so wrong with a dog who doesn't like other dogs? At some point you have to decide what is worth it. If you have a dog that dislikes other dogs...so what? Learn to manage it and for most it can be worked on and you can try to desensitize your dog to it BUT there are cases where it is NOT worth it and the dog becomes so stressed that it is nothing but a negative experience for the animal. Whenever a dog acts DA on his show it often times comes from an underlying behavioral issue in the home or from the owners and the few i've seen that I would truly consider DA, he merely suppresses the issue by using physical correction.

THIS is why physical corrections do not work in such cases. Dogs do not reason. They learn by association. Say you have a dog that hits the end of the leash every time you two see another dog and you correct it by giving a sharp jerk of the leash every time and until he submits. The dog is only going to connect "another dog means an uncomfortable feeling". Not that "Another dog+my bad reaction=correction"..so in essence you are in fact helping your dog to feel insecure when seeing other dogs. Other dog=bad things. Some dogs a correction with a leash pop might work in the sense that it suppresses the behavior, you are teaching your dog not to react essentially. Not that you've changed his mind about the dogs. You can generally tell this by the stress signs the dog shows (salivating, shaking, whining). And you can bet if for some reason you don't have a leash on in that situation, you aren't going to feel secure in your dog not going after another dog.

The only thing I'm going to say about prong/choke collars is that I think in most cases, on breeds such as the APBT they are counterproductive. These dogs are built to deal with pain for the most part and many are turned on by it and it may actually make your problem worse. Or there is the other end of the spectrum where you may have a handler soft APBT that pulls like a monster but cowers when you give it a leash correction. In very rare instances I believe a moderate physical correction may be necessary but most don't know the importance of timing of those corrections or the accurate level of correction to give for the issue at hand.

CM speaks on a very old school level. He's a charming friendly guy who is a good talker. A good trainer is one who is constantly educating themselves and working to better their skills. You never see him out working or training with others to gain knowledge. He lives in his little bubble...which hell I might not change if I made millions off it either. LOL. Just about the only positive things I see him preaching is to exercise your dogs and treat them as dogs. Other than that I can't really see a benefit to his methods.

 

if you actually watch the show you will see that he addresses the problem also. he does not just correct the dog and walk away, he corrects the unwanted behavior and then shows them the correct behavior. his system is quite reward based, but the rewards are on his own terms. if a dog wants to go after another dog he will correct it which you are right is only a temporary fix, but after the corection of the unwanted behavior and the dog calms down he puts other dogs around that dog and praises him when he is doing the right thing like sniffing playing or being calm, he does not simply correct the dog and then isolate him which would cause anxiety, he corrects them and then shows them the correct way to interact with other dogs. it is rewarded by getting to run free with the other dogs and learning how to act. but as you said as APBT owners this is something most of us accept and deal with it reasonably, but that does not mean that if you do not like that behavior you should just accept it.

 

My comment was made in jest. I was being sarcastic.

 

Thank you for posting this Blau. I myself use a combination of NILIF & the Kohler method with my bulldogs. A lot of people today don't like the Kohler method, but it's what we used in the military & it works for "hard" dogs like bulldogs. But I have found NILIF works great with them also.

Blessings ...

 

ABK can you explain the kholer method to me please i would love to learn it especially if you have had success with it thanks, and blau ceasar does use positive reinforcement. if you watch the show he always says you can never end the process in a negative way. dog agression for example he will correct it and then make sure the session with the dog seeing other dogs in a positive way. when he bring the dogs to his center he will corret the unwanted behavior and then he will praise them when they are doing good in the situation, he just does not use treats he will pet them, but he also talks a lot about energy if a dog is doing something he wants and he has positive energy the dog knows he is happy with him, i believe that flooding a dog with treats for everything it does then they will only do what you want when you have treats. we all know that dogs can sense energy and that is a very big part of his method, there is plenty of positive reinforcement in his method. in one episode there was a dog who was obsessed with fetch to the point it would bite at the persons hand so ceasar would wait till the dog calmed and concentrated on him then he would reward that behavior by throwing the ball, judging him on a couple episodes is like judging a whole blodline based on a couple representatives. and NILIF is very similar to what ceasar advocates

 

"if you actually watch the show you will see that he addresses the problem also. he does not just correct the dog and walk away, he corrects the unwanted behavior and then shows them the correct behavior. his system is quite reward based, but the rewards are on his own terms. if a dog wants to go after another dog he will correct it which you are right is only a temporary fix, but after the corection of the unwanted behavior and the dog calms down he puts other dogs around that dog and praises him when he is doing the right thing like sniffing playing or being calm, he does not simply correct the dog and then isolate him which would cause anxiety, he corrects them and then shows them the correct way to interact with other dogs. it is rewarded by getting to run free with the other dogs and learning how to act. but as you said as APBT owners this is something most of us accept and deal with it reasonably, but that does not mean that if you do not like that behavior you should just accept it."

That's what you're missing. The dog isn't calmed down. The dog is forced into a submissive posture by a HUMAN, not the other dogs. He does this to prevent the fight from escalating, sure..but all it does is put the dog in a vulnerable position around other dogs and forces them to shut down. Shutting down because of stress input and being "calm submissive".are two very different things. And being "calm submissive" is actually slightly misleading in itself in the fact that one certainly doesn't need a dog to be submissive for it to be calm. People are fixed on being 'dominant' when really most of the time dominance doesn't have a thing to do with it. It's that the owners haven't established the correct relationship with the dog or invested the correct training with the dog in the first place. Just because a dog takes advantage of lenient owners doesn't mean he's trying to dominate anything.

We as people are so fixed on the whole 'we must conquer and control all' aspect of everything that we project these things onto our animals. We're a whole different species and the thought is pretty laughable when you really think about it. Here's a good blog link that may help you understand a little more and a quote.
http://leecharleskelleysblog.blogspot.com/2009/05/cesar-millan-pack-leader-or-predator_22.html

"When you think about it, even if there were such a thing as a pack leader in wild wolf packs (which there isn’t), and even if dogs had inherited that behavioral tendency from wolves (which they haven’t), there is no way a dog could confuse a human being for another dog, i.e., his “pack leader.” It simply could not happen. When you add yet another cerebral element—that the human owner or trainer is a stand-in for or symbolizes the already abstract idea of the pack leader—you’re getting into mental territory that is way beyond what a dog’s brain is capable of."

Dogs need structure. Dogs need boundaries that are perfectly capable of being set without alpha rolling (by a human who can't simulate dog body language in any way CLOSE to other dogs) scruffing, or using negative experiences or corrections all the time.

I'd like to see him 'showing' a dog how to do anything other than shut down. If you believe him allowing the dog to get up from his position on the ground is him showing the dog anything then you would be mistaken. All the dog learned there is when he feels insecure in a situation and reacts the human is going to force him to endure it so he'd better just not react at all. Which is what I was speaking of above when I mentioned suppressing the behavior.

And why you would get a breed that being DA is a natural, generally expected trait, and then come up with "but that does not mean that if you do not like that behavior you should just accept it."......You have to accept it to a certain degree. Even if you manage to desensitize a dog and it's capable of being right next to a dog without reacting or even being calm in the best of circumstances, it would only take the wrong dog or the wrong posture to bring it back out in them. You can only 'manage it' you can not 'erase it.'

 

Just also wanted to add, while NILIF is similar to what CM mentions it does not include negative corrections, flooding, or aversive methods. It actually discourages negative attention as negative attention is still attention. Kohler does

 

Here are some links on the Kohler method:

Dog Management Systems presents

Amazon.com: P. McCann's review of The Koehler Method of Dog Training

As for CM's methods being like NILIF, I find that a tad hard to swallow. CM uses some really nasty things like flooding & alpha rolling, which are completely absent from NILIF. Negative punishments are also absent from NILIF as well, which makes it great for softer dogs. NILIF is more like the training methods of another TV trainer, Victoria Stilwell.

Here's a link on NILIF:

Nothing in Life is Free

Hope this helps.

Blessings ...

 

that was a very good article thank you. what would you reccomend for teaching a dog to walk by your side other than yank and crank

 

Like Kohler says, let the dog decide. He'll learn soon enough. They all do. Remember, you aren't "yanking or cranking" anything. YOU aren't correcting the dog, the DOG is correcting the dog. A couple of bad choices & the dog will start making the right ones. I haven't met one who wouldn't.

But if letting a dog learn through his own life lessons is too offensive for your soft heart, try NILIF.

Blessings ...

 

ABK that was a very good article also and i will definitely try this. i really apreciate all the help guys and thanks for explaining all this stuff to me

 

No problem. And remember, while some of the more "new age" trainers look down on the Kohler method, it is the one used the K9s while I was in the military & many PDs still use it. It was also used to train many of the dogs used in movies. It has been & still is successful & does not harm the dog in any way. It allows the dog to think & learn for itself & produces a healthy, happy & well trained dog. my husband & I have successfully used the Kohler method to train many dogs, to include a very aggressive Rottweiler we rescued & several of our bulldogs, to include my CGC dog.

But I like NILIF as well. What I use depends on the temperament of the dog. Sometimes I'll use one, the other or a mix of both.

Blessings ...

 

Aah, Kohler method is the name I couldn't remember! I read about it a while ago, it seems like it would work very well for the more high prey-drive type breeds.

 

Thank you so much for posting this quote. I'm so tired of hearing people say "Well that's how wolves do it in the wild!" Anyone actually bothering to study wolves would know that the oh-so famous "pack structure" of Alpha >> Beta >> Omega rarely, if ever happens to completely wild wolves, and was first documented in captive packs.

 

Yes, the Kohler method works well with high drive dogs, even if it isn't popular with the new age or overly soft people.

Another thing I would like to point out - even if wolves did have a set "pack" pattern of behaviour in the wild, it likely would not pertain to domestic dogs. Per the Russian test with wild foxes when they started to breed the friendliest foxes (i.e. domesticate them) it was noted that the foxes lost most of the behaviour of the wild foxes & even started losing the look of wild foxes. They started to look & even act puppy-like (i.e. like a dog) & lost all connection with their wild ancestors.

A lot of people like to think domestic dog = wild wolf when it doesn't. Dogs are dogs & wolves are wolves. Now does a dog need training & guidance to know it's place in the family hierarchy? Of course. I 100% agree with that. But we should be training our dogs as what they are - dogs.

JMHO.

Blessings ...

 

the heart aint soft i got no problem with it i was being more sarcastic when i was saying yank and crank, i use a prong collar to get them to heal but koler's method of doing it seems much better and actually makes a lot of sense. that article seemed right on the money and i can not wait to try the healing exercise they were talking about. Have you read his book i am thinking about buying it

 

can you point me in the right direction on where i can learn about wolves i find that stuff really interesting, are there any books you have read that you would reccomend. thanks