cesar milan

I've been researching wolves since I could first read books, I used to be obsessed with them haha. Just check out your local library, there are many new and old studies on the lives of wolves; their behavior, how they hunt, and interact with eachother. If you can somehow find them, there have also been many wonderful specials on wolves on channels like Discovery and NatGeo. "Wolfdogs" magazine is really nice, it focuses on wolves and wolf hybrids. A book I can name offhand is Discovering Yellowstone Wolves, I read it sometime last year.

The Wolf Crossing These people have owned and bred wolves and hybrids for many years to help with education about them, their website is pretty nifty too.
Edit; here's a good list of wolf books, I've read quite a few of them. Books on Wolves the Dog Family @ WorkingDogWeb

 

You can either find or order the Kohler books at book store outlets like Barnes & Noble's or Books-A-Million.

Here is info on the fox study:

Article: The Russian Fox Study The Thoughtful Animal

Videos: Fox Behavior

As for the info on the wolves, I'm sure Blau or another member will be able to help you with that. I have many wolf books & resources but all mine are about captive packs.

Blessings ...

 

thanks guys i have found a few articles on the internet about wolf packs and most of them all say what you guys were saying about the alpha thing that it is only in captive packs. they were saying that there were alphas in the wild but it was determined by the pair of wolves that do the mating

 

Is this a bad thing junkyard?

 

http://leerburg.com/playem.htm?name=flv/Ellis-1.flv

Michael Ellis, my idea of a great trainer. Start the video about 3:30

He's not a pure positive trainer. This video talks some about corrections.
http://leerburg.com/playem.htm?name=flv/Ellis-3.flv

 

Good link Leslie! I'm hoping to take some of his classes now that he's opened that school out here.

 

my goodness...all I am going to say is I see more good with the man then bad and that is all I am going to say so don't bother me about what I believe is the truth of the matter

 

A bit about Koehler. I use a lot of modified Koehler for ground work. Long line, heeling approach (without breaking your dog's neck). However, a lot of his methods are damned dumb, damned outdated, damned likely to damage your dog, and certainly your relationship with it. See Koehler's books for the times and attitudes they were written for, then remind yourself that many better methods have come along since he worked.

 

Yeah, a lot of "new age" people say that about Kohler. But that facts are his methods work whether you use them modified or straight from the book. I have used them both ways & never ended up with a "damaged" dog. Of course one must use common sense while using his methods. I will say his methods are not for those who cannot follow directions or have a lack of common sense.

But if the Kohler method was so terrible, they wouldn't be used by professional K9 units! You don't see the military or the PDs out there using "Cesar's Way." When I was in the military they used the Kohler method for their dogs & in fact, the our kennel master in Korea taught right out of his books.

As for "when he worked," the Kohler method is still being used today as you read this. There are training centers who use it & as I mentioned previously, the military & many PDs use it. His is a training method that has stood the test of time. (I think it has been successfully used for the past 60 years or so.)

But different strokes for different folks. Use whatever works for you.

But to get back to the OP, as for CM, I don't think he is our breed's saviour as some think. Sure he does not say they're mean or aggressive, but on the flip side of that coin he doesn't say they were created for canine combat & that dog aggression is natural in the breed. He puts forth the idea any problem can be fixed using "Cesar's Way" when it can't. Dog aggression can never be trained out it can only be managed.

The way CM portrays our dogs to JQP, you can get an APBT & as long as you use "Cesar's Way" the dog will be Lassie. Then he points to his Pitter-Staffs & AmBullies as proof. IMO this type of thinking will get a lot of people (& dogs) in trouble. There was always the old wives tale "it's all in how you raise them" before CM, but I am hearing it much more since CM came on the scene. Due to how he represents the breed on TV (benign tractable animals), people are completely ignorant of increased level of responsibility & care APBTs require. They think as long as they follow "Cesar's Way" everything will be A-OK. And as I mentioned before, I think this is a recipe for trouble.

And I am not a fan of his training techniques for reasons I have already mentioned previously.

But this is JMHO.

Blessings ...

 

I think that there has been tremendous progress in dog training, and the training of all animals. Labelling it as "new age" is implying, IMO, that it is preferred only by soft hearted, ineffectual people who think of their dog as their "furkid". I posted the Michael Ellis link because he is a highly regarded and accomplished trainer, he does use corrections, but he demonstrates the changes in training style that have occured since Koehler.
Another great trainer, who has uses much more positively based training, is Ivan Balabanov. He has won competitions at the National and International level, and has trained dogs for the police and for real life protection.
http://www.premierprotectiondogs.com/media.html

IMO opinion, you can definitely get dogs to perform well w/the Koehler method, I've used it myself (though I am in no way an accomplished trainer). But, you can get dogs that are happy and eager to perform using more positively based methods.

Also, I think CM is a clown, and harmful to our breed, and to training.

 

I do call it "new age" b/c most of the newer trainers are all about sunshine & rainbows & treat bribery. The Kohler method, if used correctly is not the demon it is made out to be. It's not all punishment based. It does use positive reinforcement as well, although some of the "new age" people doesn't think it does since you aren't chunking treats at the dog all the time.

But that's one thing I like about the Kohler method. It basically uses the same training that we humans use on children - trial & error with good or bad consequences for chosen actions. Dogs have to learn what consequences follow what action & the positive consequences can be play or praise as they are in Kohler's method. After all, you aren't going to go about with tid-bits in your pocket all the time are you?

And yes, one can most certainly get results using other methods & the other trainers might indeed be successful & accomplished (as is Kohler). I don't want to take anything away from them. As I mentioned before, do what works for you & your dog. After all I myself do not use the Kohler method all the time. On my hard dogs I use straight Kohler, on my medium dogs modified Kohler & on really soft dogs sometimes I only use NILIF.

But to imply the Kohler method is outdated b/c other trainers have come along since him & been successful or that it's cruel b/c corrections are actually administered & you aren't bribing the dog with food all the time is silly. (I know you didn't mention the latter two objections Leslie, but some people do.)

The fact is, the Kohler method is proven, it is successful & it has successfully trained dogs for the highest level of professional use or competition. But will agree it is not for everyone or every dog.

Blessings ...

 

Ya know what, I'm going to fight my natural instinct to get insulted by silly misrepresentation and then writing a two page diatribe with footnotes proving precisely why some of the above is so much manure.

Instead, I'll try to keep this simple, clear and non-personal. After all, ideas and facts should stand on their own without the need to mislabel, misrepresent or obfuscate.

1. You may be among those who never had a problem using Koehler's methods. However, I know people, from the professional and qualified people to the over-emotional dipstick who have indeed damaged their dogs using Koehler's methods. The list includes, but is not limited to, collapsed trachea, fractured bones in the neck and throat, ruptured salivary glands, and blindness cause by the use of his "cure for dogs that fight." Basically, you take a length of hose, put a wooden dowel in it, face a dog-aggressive dog to another and when he lunges you hit him as hard as you can across the muzzle with the hose covered dowel. Unfortunately, those of us that know dog aggressive dogs realize that they don't always stand still when, and hitting a muzzle on a relatively short-muzzled breed like the APBT can be hit or miss. Unfortunately, some people I know, and know of, missed and struck dogs in the eye instead. Sometimes ruptured eyeballs do not heal, and some dogs will not stop fighting no matter how many times you hit them across the muzzle with a hose covered wooden dowel.

2. If you think the millitary is waiting six days, much less six months, to start evaluating and training a dog; forget new age, you've missed huge old age discoveries and techniques about when to start working with dogs.

3. If you really believe that your dog seeing you or another human picking up his shit will put you lower in pack order in the dog's eyes,...well.

4. Rolling tuna cans, throw chains, and "stinging and dog's thighs" with a switch for "bad behavior" are kinda,...need I say?

5. Are his ideas about showing clear distinctions/consequences between wanted and unwanted behaviors, food rewarding, etc sound? Damn straight. Koehler is still among the clearest and effective for some situations.

6. However, the fact that the man felt the need to put affadavits from vets, friends, and the pope at the beginning of his books promising that "no dog would ever be hurt using Koehler methods"
pretty much tells one with a curious mind that maybe, just maybe there have been questions about safety to prompt such preemptive protest and ass-covering.

Clearly, common sense is needed when using any training method, especially when training for serious situations. However, some methods have less room for error than others, Koehler is one of those. You mess up, you can mess up your dog or get messed up yourself. This is why so many speak of Koehler as though he were the devil incarnate.

As for hanging a dog. I don't give a damn, I'll hang a dog that goes after me till he shits twice and is petted by Saint Peter. However, that is not a method that just everyone can physically use, even with a thirty-pound minor-thug of a dog, much less a catch-weight killer who will climb up the leash then climb up your ass if you can't hang him fast or long enough. And FYI, that is not a technique that any dog with brains is going to let you get away with twice should your back, wrists or nerve give out the first time. Just ask the folks with the permanent scars.

For these reasons, I suggest caution, common sense, and a little reading about training techniques perfected after the 1940's.

JMHO, and like you said, "different strokes for different folks."

 

i started using his method for healing today and i already see a major improvement. like you said though you have to use common sense. and as far as hitting a dog with a dowel you would have to be a damn moron to even think that would work.like ABK said earlier i believe that you can take bits and pieces from all training methods and use them. it is kinda like when putting a dog through a keep you have to know your dog, and what works for him, and what motivates him.

 

High Coast: I agree. That is why I keep re-iterating the Kohler method is not for everyone & not for every dog. But for those who can do it & have the common sense to preform it correctly, it can be a wonderful tool.

I myself am not big on his idea of hitting a DA in the face. There are other methods to break DA in certain breeds now a days.

And the APBT as a short-muzzled breed? I would hope not!

As for our military dogs, they are purchased as adults from European kennels. As such, there is no 6 month evaluation wait. They purchase adult dogs who are already trained. But they do (or at least they did when I was in) use the Kohler method to simply maintain & re-enforce the training the dog already has.

As for the affidavit I agree. It was a CYA thing all the way. But doesn't the almighty Cesar do the same thing ...? I think CM has a disclaimer on every single program that airs. I'm sure this is not an unusual thing among trainers.

And you are 100% right. Hanging is not for everyone. I remember our new K9 troops used to have to stand with their arms outstretched holding full 5 gallon water buckets in each hand to build strength for any hangings they may have to do. It's tough, on both the handler & the dog. But it works. And as Kohler says, one strong correction that extinguishes the behaviour is much kinder than 100 weak corrections that do not.

But the MWD handlers did teach us one thing they came up with for those who couldn't hang a dog & that was what they called the "helicopter." It's exactly what it sounds like & it works like a charm for those too weak to hang a man-eater. Momentum can be a great thing! lol. But due to the danger to the dog, it was considered a BIG no-no & a handler could get in trouble if the higher ups caught them doing it.

And for whatever reason, I do not know why, any dog that I knew who ever got hung or helicoptered never went after a handler again. Go figure. lol.

Oh well. Hope this clears up any confusion.

Boze: I'm glad you're seeing results. I love his concept for the heeling exercise. It seems to work really well.

Blessings ...

 

:goodposting::goodposting::sign0087:

I for one certainly don't think that the world of dog training should be all bunnies and rainbows and there are certainly times and places for corrections...by qualified professionals who have the correct timing and know how to apply them at the proper level that fits the 'infraction' so to speak. And also only if the dog is disobeying a command that has been proofed and trained and you are sure the dog knows what it is being asked to do.

IMO, using physical correction in training a new behavior is possible but is just as easily (actually easier IMO) taught without it. The result is often times a dog that is excited to work for you. There is also a large difference between using treats as a bribe and using them as reinforcement. Most people end up using them as bribes because through several technique mistakes that simple research, reading and practice of the proper techniques will fix.

Many of the 'old school' people who trained the Kohler method did so because it was one of the only ways that was around to train at the time. 15 years ago we hadn't yet made the strides to get where we are today with the positive training methods. And just because the methods are 'proven' doesn't mean there aren't just as effective ways to obtain the same behaviors. It's a bit like staying in the dark ages just because you're scared of electricity. There are many newer trainers who truly do more harm then good with their purely positive methods because there are little to know boundaries set,ect. However there are also trainers who use heavy compulsion methods that do just as much if not more damage. I'd rather work with a dog who has an over-
exuberant personality and has yet to learn barriers then try and fix one who has become resistant or even aggressive to corrections because they were applied incorrectly or too often.

 

ABK what are the ways to manage dog agression in other breeds that you were talking about, are there any articles

 

A question; are these older methods considered "out-dated" because of scientific studies, or are they considered "out-dated" because of the way out society thinks today? Or a little of both? And if it is because of scientific studies, how far has the science of dog training come within the past 60-50 years? And with that said, doesn't that mean that perhaps "today's" methods of training will be considered "out-dated" and not worth using in 20 or so years?

 

Did you do the long line ground-work first?
I'm asking because although you can see results from just doing turns and jerks on six-foot leash to get a dog to pay attention and start heeling, if you really take the time with the long line first it really makes a difference.

 

Both. There are so many things we know now that we didn't know then, and so much we will know in the future that we have no clue about now.

 

What confusion?