Todays staffords it's a shame

I just don't think the Staffordshire bull terrier was as good as the APBT, if someone would have stuck with S.B.T. back then and was into sport they would have lost money ,back when the APBT came over there was 50/60 years of show dog people breeding Staffordshire bull terriers for a physical shape, with no concern for ability or gameness, and these ware the dogs that ware used for sport prior to APBTs coming to Europe...if it was greyhound racing, and there was only lurchers in a country, people would soon switch to greyhounds as if you keep lurchers you loose money, thats my opinion......R

 

Shortly put... Those lads expect and demand that their dogs are game and never quit. But first chance they got they quit on their dogs!

How many APBT kennels are there that has 10, 30, 50 or even 100 dogs on their yards? How many serious Stafford breeders are there that has 10-20+ dogs? The simple answer is that I do not know a single one. The fact that there is occasionally a Staff that can give just about any dog a run for its money proves that those guys took a premature decision when they jumped the APBT bandwagon. Another proof is that the Yankees started out with exactly the same dogs as the Irish and English and look what they made out of it! It would still be doable with the small genepool that remains of the true Stafford, but the modern dogmen are lazy bastards that prefere taking the easy route.

 

Barclay was one of the best athletes of his time-he set records for running 100 miles,walked 1000 miles in 1000 hours(42 days).Id say that trustys matches probably were against far inferior competition,did they weigh dogs in them days?-I know of several working terriers with 100+ hard digs behind them-i know its hardly the same thing

 

I'm sticking with staffords and will breed them true to type as long as I can have'em. anyone joining me instead of belittling them?
we know there are really scarce but there are still a good amount to work from.
I said it before, I have owned both types and several staffords i've seen, pits dont have nothing on them to be called superior.

let's get off the mary-go-around. it takes time and effort. Pits have been selectively bred for performance, even if they never see the box in countries that allow it or even if they are just family pets. there's the difference between the two bloods.

two many clowns trying to change the staffords temp and not for soundness of body and mind.

 

That is a strong opinion OTR,but your entitled to it.
I think without the history of some of them lads & their staffords in the 70's/80's (that moved over),then you would not have the very few decent staffords around today. Take most of them lads out of the equation & you may as well forget about recent stafford (working) history. Truth be told,them lads were not replaced & the stafford suffered through it. Rather than lay the blame on them owners of the past,i would be more critical of most of the ones who followed them (Not all & no i am not implying your good self).
Sorry,but i cannot agree on your "fact" that one occasionally turns up who can just about give any dog a run for his money.
You make a debateable statement regarding what the Yanks started out with & taking heart in that,but is it truly doable ?
Good luck................

 

Maybe it was a strong statement, I dont know. Of course there are a few of them old lads that deserve a lot of respect for the work they did. And of course them lads where not replaced, they lead by example! The newcomers did what the seasoned dogmen did and got themselves APBTs.

There is a thing in these dogs I do not appreciate, and that is when people chase the red dragon! They always seem to think there is something better around the next corner. They ditch what they have and most of the time they do not end up with anything better! They show an absolute lack of comitment and dedication. Some of them guys who ditched the Staffs for APBTs have ditched numerous breeders, bloodlines and producers since! If you just regard the Staffs as a game-dog bloodline then the pattern gets very clear.

You do not have to agree with me at all when it comes to quality etc, I do not know your experiences. But based on what I have seen with my own eyes I am confident that it would be possible to bring the Staffs up to a high standard. But of course it is not doable when people only keep one or two dogs- or peddle off the whole litters etc. I am sure that one or two american style yards would be enough! But hell- I have one of the biggest Stafford yards in Europe- and it would not even qualify as a yard by american standards.

 

pits dont have nothing on them to be called superior ( your a clown )

 

the books 'the celebrated barclay' and 'the half mad lord' (about Camelford) are worth a read...i belive they did weigh the dogs back then...just to add Trustys record is recorded as 104...'Battles'...(not matches) i expect he took on and beat all comers...definatly barnstorming a lot of curs to reach that figure

 

Spot on 'on the rocks'...i have often thought the same

 

ive read a bit about barclay- he seemed a fairly amazing person-Id say your probably right on the battles/matches issue.

 

Think the days of having large yards are over. The staffords may well be doable but the whole point is to win so why waste time and money to try and do that when you can already get something that does the job? Just to say youve done it with a stafford? Im not anti staffords by any means just interested in your reply.

 

If everyone tought like that there would be no old genuine things left! Because it is easier, cheaper and takes less time to buy a new car instead of buying a classic car and restore it to mint condition. Easier to buy a new house than restoring a old victorian house! The new car or house is probably better even tough it is cheaper! It is also easier and cheaper to eat at McDonalds compared to eat at a good restaurant!

As I see it the working strains of the Staffords are genuine European game dogs- and if I am pretty sure future generations of doggers will deem us hard for letting them fade away. If the only objective is to win, why even bother with dogs? go and buy a few roosters! Easier, cheaper and you can show a lot more often!

 

Forget about names or breeds of dogs, if there was a strain of fighting dogs, that a very high percentage are bad winded, conformation that hinders a dogs ability to fight, low percentage of gameness would you start with this strain, and if you did, would you stick with it, the dog men in Britain used SBT in the past, because there was no APBTs, when they came in the 1970s, the dog men seen they ware better and gamer switched, and anyone who was into sport would have been a fool not to, of all the matches twix SBT-v- APBT, staffords won a very very low percent, its on record in yearbooks, sporting dog journals, pitbull news, its been proven in the past, the majority of people have done nothing with their staffords, they make great pets, agility dogs and good for hunting vermin..but compared to the APBT , they dont...R

 

Good posts Otr. If more people thinked like that from early years i also Think the staffords would have been something else today.

 

bottom line is who cares, not the apbt onwers only the staff owners and seeing that the staff does not fall in to the catorgory that this site is named in find a more suited forum this post has gone 18 pages longer than it should of, the apbt is here and here to stay where ever the F... your from, ban or no ban. Truth always hurts..

 

how many staffords have you owned?
have any of them been defeated by pits?
you come here smacking lips but no show, where are those great pure dogs of yours?
echo, echo, echo......... its all I hear.
it's easy for you and anyone who's never owned a good stafford say anything unpleasant. just assuming

 

Seems most people do think like that because their are far better pitbulls out there than staffords hence the topic name. Im the last person to put money before the dogs. Its just feeding aload of dogs does cost time and money and not everyone has it to waste. Other than to say you have won the show with a stafford what difference does it make? Of course its always lovely to see a good stafford and I laugh when people with their kitchen bred mutts even call their dogs staffords but fact is the aim is to win and youve got a better chance with the pitbull? The only objective in a show as far as im concerned is to win what other reason would you show a dog for..too loose:confused:

Good luck and all the best to anyone wishing to keep the stafford true to type but like i said its only the name of a breed dont see what that matters.

 

The Staffordshire Bull Terriër as an working animal.

Debates are going on about the working SBT and that it can still stand against the ABPT.
The owners claiming that since they were a long time ago the same type of dogs, if they are bred properly.

Altough the origin of the SBT and the ABT can be traced down to the same dogs, a lot has happened since those day’s.
The last working stock that was indeed of the same quality as the dogs that wend to the USA is over 100 years ago, may not be much in a historical perspective but in breeding working dogs a lot has changed.

The Fanciers in the states kept those dog’s because of the liberty they had until 1976, to their true nature and that is to be a fighting dog.
While the love for the working dogs grew bigger in the states also the fact that those guys looked more in to training and feeding a fighting dog.
In Europe the opposite went on.
They wanted the working dog to be a breed.
To be classified as a breed, you need to have several generations showing the same traits not only in behaviour but also in looks to get recognized by the FCI.
As any breeder will know it takes time to get to the point that almost every dog is indeed of the same look and share the same type of behaviour.
There for it is also save to assume that when the standard was made in 1935 on the type of certain dogs, they already had an family walking around that had been bred for those traits.
So while the Americans where working the animals in 1920, the UK they were already been busy in generating a new breed of dog, as we know them today, The SBT.
Since that date the SBT was more and more bred for show purposes, you may still had the few fanciers of working dogs but the show stock took of in a boom.

In the 60’s some fanciers got more involved in fighting dog to dog instead just using them for vermint hunting for that they used the SBT trying to be selective as they can to breed the dogs they wanted to see.

2 factors, 1 should never forget

1, the matching of dogs is not always for the dogs or to see if they are game, the matching of dogs is also entertainment may sounds harsh but it is or else there wouldn’t be such an attraction to it from outsiders and there would not be so much betting going on.

The second thing is 2 times shit equals shit, no disrespect intended to those who were involved in the SBT at that time, just saying what it is you may like what you have and it can be good but when you have seen the real deal, sometimes you learn and move on.

With this beeing said, I want to clear the fact that they did the best with what they had until they have seen that the APBT is of more outstanding quality.
From the SBT breedings that have been done only a hand full made the cutt as a fighting dog and a smaller % of that can stand against APBT

Comparing the SBT versus the APBT 1 should also not forget that gamennes has actually nothing to do with it anymore.
Let’s forget about the names and gameness for a while and assume that they both are game.
Then style, intellect, ability and air come to play in getting a good working dog.
Also in al these facts most SBT lack it compared to a well bred APBT.
If you look at the history, % proves it.
The types of SBT that most of the time can stand against APBT are most of the times build like 1.
Should that not make 1 wonder why they are build like that.
The reason is very simple, you need the long back, the deep chest’s and long legs to get a dog with enough ability and air to handle it self in the box.
So if you are breeding working stock SBT, you should breed type for type and then the end result is that you get a dog that is hard to tell apart form an APBT, in looks as well in style.
So should 1 not breed his best to best, and this is not been done with most Stafford people.
Specialy in the last 15 to 20 years.
To many people have been breeding for a name and more and more show stock owner who’s dog’s are just a bit leggier then other SBT are claiming that they have the true origin of the SBT but stil to this day having a hard time working together in creating a well bred line of dogs.
Why is it that there is a champion SBT out there who won 3 and lost 1 al against APBT but no sound breeding program is been made around this dog.
Why is it that i see that till this day breedings are still been done because of the names.
It used to be PSYCHO, oh i have a psycho bred dog, now everybody is running around to get the blood of the FFB dogs but still most have no clue to what they should be breeding to instead, the best type of dogs you can get to better the faults of your own dogs.
But most SBT owners are kennel blind and ped horny and with out proper breeding and testing for sound dogs.

Those factors are proven and the reason why the modern day SBT wil never get or wil be in the same class as the APBT.

 

Is there bitchs out there to go with that stafford you mention nobody? also that loss may throw some dought although ive heard different from different people. Some even question if the dog is a pure stafford? dont see why the owners would of had any reason to lie though. Im sure his been behind some dogs ive seen which were fine dogs. Thing is the dought on the loss and the dought on the breed...gotta be proven staffords out there even if they dont have the show wins, proven dogs and no dought to the breed. Itll cost alot of time and money though and for what just to say you done it? Aims to win and the pitbull option gives you a far better chance of getting a good dog for weight pulling.

 

Well Gog you are 1 of the people who knows what i am talking about and i wil be the first to say that offcourse i do not know everything but what i do know is from trusted men and out of experience.
I know he is behind some dogs that shows quality's and from what's been told to me i have no reason to doubt he is not a SBT.
But can you call those you have seen out of him typical SBT's ?
That's why i said of you breed working sbt's and you breed 100% for working ability's you wil end up with a dog with the same structure in build as an APBT after so many generations because that's what works best instead of the typical SBT build.
I also start to get serious doubt's that any that say has working SBT's ever had real time experience with [] apbt, if so they would be more honest in their opinion and do not think so lightly about the SBT vs APBT subject.