Killer Genes

I do write this to cause a discussion, I don´t state that I´m absolutely right with all I tell. It´s just my thoughts and my experience with the breed!

As my english isn´t that good I might can´t get some points as clear as I´d love to because I don´t know the exact terms!

Hopefully I can share my thoughts properly!

If the discussion leads to dog on dog agression, many people are the oppinionn that this trait is genetically linked in the American Pit Bullterriers behaviour.

Its told that American Pit Bullterriers are not to trust arround other dogs but my experiences (with gamebred dogs) have been completely different as I do keep my dogs as a pack and have the need of not unneccessary aggressive behaviour to other dogs caused by my circumstances and guess what it works!

In my oppinion that´s far away from the truth.
It´s also not true that (as stated by self propagated experts on canine behaviour) within nature canides (f.e. wolves) don´t kill another member of their own species.

Some myths even states that grown dogs won´t hurt a puppy!

These theories are dangerous and showing nothing but the lack of knowledge on canine behaviour!

Here´s what fits to my experiences:

Me and my dog, we are a pack. If we meet another person and its dog out on the street its a strange pack to us.
If the dog doesn´t react aggressive, he´s either the oppinion that the other pack doesn´t hurt one of its basic resources (territory).
This is mostly caused by the way he is conditioned or this certain resource (territory) isn´t of special interest to him.

To make it mre clearly it is basically linked to the following reasons:

- He is used to the appearance of strange packs within his territory
- He is not in need to defend a special resource
- He is used to the other dog and gets along with him

So what will happen if a pack of totally not human influenced canides (i. e. wolves) gets aware of a strange pack in their territory?

- If they have enough power they´ll fight them!
These fights are about a major resource (territory, health, life, access to food etc.). Usually it´s kill or be killed!
They don´t accept submissive behaviour or retreat by members of a strange pack! They do seriously hurt the others and if possible kill them (it´s well documented)! They also destroy strange puppies as they could be (once grown) a future danger to their resources.

So this leads to the following conclusions:

A dog is a social and pack oriented being!
He clearly can tell strangers from members of its own pack.
He treats strangers (of his own species) way different than members of its own pack (as he is socialized with them).
Strangers could be or more likely are a danger to important resources (life, health, food, territory, opportunity to reproduce etc.).

So there´s only one way to eliminate this danger by killing the stranger or at least push him out of the dogs territory!

If a pack doesn´t have enough power to fight a strange pack they escape and finally will be pushed out of their territory and have to deal with another that often isn´t a good base with far less resources aswell as being a big drawback to the defeated pack!

So you can clearly see that there are two things evolutionary based in a dogs behaviour.

The ultimate desire to fight (and kill) strangers of its own species aswell as social behaviour that helps avoiding serious physical conflicts within the own pack as it helps the survival of the pack!

Getting along with strange dogs and not being overly defensive of resources is a clear sign of human influence (training / socialisation) aswell as of some kind of decadence within kept by humans dogs.

As canides are pack oriented beings they are orienting on us and therefore fit into the given circumstances and human needs to a major degree!
Otherwise we wouldn´t be able to keep them as we do!
It´s just a matter of how we could influence the dog properly!

Dogs do have a very fine way to communicate and avoiding violent conflicts (even our American Pit Bullterrier). The basics of this behaviour is genetically in them and manifested by evolution but it wouldn´t work without proper socialisation.
This (social) behaviour is taught first by their mother aswell as littermates and afterwards by the other pack members.
This is not a moralistic behaviour its just the sheer logical need of given natural circumstances (survival of the pack).

So what about the American Pit Bullterrier?

Basically they have the same starter kitt as a chihuahua, Great Dane or any other living dog.

As we most likely keep them separated form other dogs (chain/kennel/single dog household) from a couple of weeks old we should socialize them instead of a pack of its own species (which is usually not given).
As most people don´t know how dogs exactly communicate and how their awareness of their environment works we have no way (and most certainly no desire as we are focused on our needs in a dog and therefore socialising him customised to our needs as humans) of giving them the right direction.

So let´s see how a pit dog is (if we take the most known writings as a basic into our consideration) raised, socialized and "trained".

We usually keep the puppies and the brood seperated from the other dogs.
So the puppies only have one grown dog to copy its behaviour and only their littermates to improve and try their social skills.
So this leads to the question how the brood is socialised.
If she´s (if we take it as given) a tested dog, she most likely reacts agressive in sight of a stange dog. So therefore the puppies are adapting her behaviour. Therefore also a good brood should be by no means an overly shy dog as the puppies will copy this behaviour!

Also if the brood would have a genetically transmitted killer gene, why doens´t she kill her offspring? Why don´t the puppies immediately start to kill each other?
It´s more likely that she´s acting properly because of her genetic based brood instinct supported by the additive hormones combined with her early experiences as a puppy!

Usually the puppies would be separated (sold or kenneled ) from the age of 6 - 12 weeks old.
From now on they are usually kept isolated (kennel / Single dog) from other dogs. His main sociall partner and contact is his owner that belongs to a totally different species and can´t stand in for another dog to give him the proper (canine) direction. We don´t even want this actually as we have other needs in a dog than letting him do natural doggy things and condition him customised on our needs and purposes!
Otherwise keeping a dog as a pet would almost be impossible!

The only dogs this little puppy knows are the ones chained or kenneled next to him without any further social and tactile contact to improve his social skills.

If he grew old enough another dog is put on him to see if he´s started.

Now mostly these youngsters react as following:

- Hollering and reacting confused as they don´t know what happens to them
- Try to show submissive behaviour as it has worked with their mother and littermates
- Being totally paralized (some call these dogs cold)
- Fight back

Ignoring the last point dogmen are stating that the dog hasn´t started yet. So mostly they sit on him for a couple of weeks / months and give him a second try. If they fail twice they are usually eliminated.

So what just happened to that youngster?

He had an (believe it or not) an traumatic experience.
The only physical contact with another dog was a more or less painfull and confusing experience.

So the dogs that started learned a lesson!

Another dog is a serious danger to a major resource (health)!

Now the dogs that started recieveing some short schooling rolls that should be held shortly to provide them a joyfull ecperience (Stratton) with an experienced not too rough dog!

These short rolls should build up the youngsters confidence as they really do! He learns if he fights back eagerly, the other dog is "going away" (as you separate them)! So it´s ok to him to pass one resource (health) away for another major resource (life etc.).

A dog fight is a sterile and denatured situation.

A dog knows what a pit is and what will happen once in there!

As he learned how to act as described above he will be confident fighting as he learned if he´s fighting back eagerly he will safe his resources!

The topic is mainly focused on aggression by now!

This kind of aggressionn is not unmotivated as it has pretty strong motives but surely isn´t based by a killer instinct its based by conditioning to a certain circumstance.

Also gameness has nothing to do with aggression as it is basically the amount of confidence and endurance a dog has once fighting!

Also a dogfight is basically a test of a dogs confidence within an conflict!

The ones that are jumping the wall or quitting are showing another variation of ending a physical conflict by escaping or not geting back into action again.

Both is absolutely in a dogs menatl package but not linked to a killer gene!!!!

If there would be a killer gene within the breed they can´t quit!
But infact the majority of all pitdogs will certainly quit! It´s just a matter of circumstances! Deep game or even deadgame dogs are the exception not the rule!

There have been also dogs out there that quit once just to win another time out (it´s documented) but mostly a quitter doesn´t get a second try!

There are also dogs that ruin that killer gene theory!

One example is a true Ace of Aces. Atila Kennel´s Gr. Ch. Dendy (and he´s just one of a large number) is a winning machine in the pit, outside he´s peacefull and loves to play with his Rottweiler friends according to the articles written about him (especially Balkan Gamedogs Book 1).
Dogs like him are more often of high caliber and quite intelligent as they can tell one situation from another but don´t expect that within the majority of pitdogs.

So for sure isyou can´t train gameness on a dog. You can´t train it off a dog. Gameness isn´t linked to unneccessary aggressive behaviour!
American Pit Bullterriers have the same social instincts as any other breed of dog it just depends on how you have him socialised and conditioned.
They tend to be more powerfull and energetic acting than some other breeds and have more physical capacities once engaged but according to the timeterms of evolution selective breeding is a milisecond to the timely efforts of evolution and evolution is based on what is needed for a species to survive and fit it´s purpose!


We can avoid unwanted aggressive behaviour by socialising and directing our dogs properly!

Looking for your thoughts and hopefully could share my thoughts to some degree as I´m not a native speaker!

 

Well my pups gets separated when they start killing each other not so they will.Packs,good luck with that.Now a few of mine get along out side but if i put them up together in the same kennel or house its on right away.Males in my yard will kill a pup with the quickness.had one that was good with pups then one day he decided against them.There are mother dogs that will kill there young.To think you can train them is a mistake.A few might but most the time it wont.People that try to convince people that they are pack animals will get them in trouble,I don't understand why they killed each other there pack animals,NOT.
If its due to lack off socialising then why under any owner and with growing up with each other then when they turn what do re socialize them?

 

It´s working for me within the last 25 years within these dogs!

Even there are some females that kill their puppies it is based on a variety of circumstances, also avoiding trouble within the puppies is closely based on how thw mother reacts!

See a brood can only give skills that she herself has gained!

To me it works as follows!

All dogs are under stricts command, that is sit means sit and I usually not like to give a command twice without repressions!

All resources belongs to me, I decied what will happen to any resource, therefore there´s no need for them to argue about resources!

Also my pups are raised like following:

If they are getting f. e. mobbed, I ineract, it´s not on the dog to clean that situation.
If my dog starts mobbing another or put pressure on him I interact.
They do have to work pretty hard and I do let them work as a team!

It´s strict discipline and timing aswell keeping a watchfull eye on them!

See actually I do have my Sorrells / Hammond female that is a rough and drivey powerfull dog she´s not a show dog she´s from real deal breeding, some years ago I added a Bullterrier female to that pack that was given to me as she was a fightcrazy dog that driving her former owner nuts because she started fights every oportunity she gets, since 6 months I do keep an Working Cross Bred Border Collie that actually don´t like humans and doesn´t get along with other dogs.

Right now all are in the same room and there´s peace!

They figured out that I´m the one that decides not they have to decide!

Describing my method would take a book but if you have deep knowledge you are able to team them up!

Its a very very difficult task and there are some drawbacks. Mostly linked to selfdiscipline!

And absolutely not intended for the average owner!

I do state that 99 % of the dog owners are not in control of their animals regardeless of breed!

Don´t take this personal it´s just my experience!

I dealt with aggressive dogs since I was 15 years old!7

The first dog I resocialized was a Rottweiler that was to put down beacause of massive aggression toward humans and dogs!

As I got him he was 5 years and he died with 12 years of age and became a trustworthy rock solid dog!

 

Good job. Interesting read. I have seen many ppl who are able to have these dogs function in a pack properly. I will say this- it takes a highly skilled/knowledgeable handler to pull it off.

 

i have my doubts in having a APBT in a pack, they where bred for combat. it's like trying to teach a GSD not to be a quarddog.. doesn't seem natural for them. remember they were created by man it's a different story with wild dogs and wolves dont really think you can compare it.

 

One of the ways I've seen it done was if it didn't "work" in the pack, it would be eliminated. You have to know what traits or qualities to look for. Kinda like what a breeder does when he says a pup " looks promising." Ive also seen labs and GSD's "get it in" with other dogs. Yet these dogs weren't bred for that. Do I think it's possible? Yes. Do I think everyone should try it? HELL NO. I had an extremely DA female that can be walked off leash and wouldn't attack anything. She would scream her ass off but as long as I said "no" or "leave it," she would keep moving. And she lived with 4 other dogs in the same house. No fights ever. Now the dogs I have now, I would never attempt to walk off leash or anything of that matter. I believe with proper selection and a skilled handler, anything can be possible.

 

Hi there!

Who tells you that a GSD is a good guard dog by nature?????

See, I´m from Germany and there are plenty GSD arround! But only a small percentage will give a sold guard dog! Not compare a guard dog with a dog that is barking his head of behind a fence!

Usually a dog isn´t interested in engaging with a human as we are a totally different species that without human influence doesn´t bother a dog!

This could be seen within second to third generation street dogs aswell as pariah dogs!

What makes a GSD for example a good protection and guard dog is the following:

Physical Structure (size / weight / etc.)
Raised and socialized with humans (if you have to live with someone on a social base you could also have some conflicts with him)
Team up with his owner (making him a major resource and partner by feeding petting playing educating etc.)!
Use the defensive drives that a canine has in him!
And from now on you must condition him as follows! A strange person is a danger to its resources and he (the dog) is in the position to defend them!
Hence you first build up confidence within attack dog training by playing tug of war with a stranger, this also means you are giving away party of your position as a pack leader as usually the pack members of the lower ranks (as the dog should be) don´t have to decide if to fight or not! They usually have to wait for the initial acting of the leaders and supporting them! Same as the peasants within a chess game!
Now you letting him struggle with the agitator for his prey as a kind of a joyfull prey! And most people if they do Schutzhundsport leave it that way! But man of these dogs trained as a sporting schutzhund certainly still give no good guard dog!

Now you can improve that game by putting massive pressure and some degree pain on the dog to switch him into the attack / defense drive! Usually a sporting Schutzhund is focused on the sporting sleeve! Its way different within a seriously attack trained dog!

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He has learned not to see the agitator / strange humans as a tug o war buddy he is conditioned to see them as a potential danger to their resources!

So as long as you aren´t able to keep such a dog under command this would be a big danger to society!

See I did train dogs on a professional base for different purposes and thats how it works!

 

In addtion what is needed to compete in a physical contest?

- the physical structure
- soundness
-confidence
- a clear mind and awareness even under pressure
- good nerves
- power
- high drives
- intelligence
- health
- endurance

Aggression is just initial to start fighting but not necessary to win!
If you are all raged out in a fight and therefore have no clear mind this could lead to serious faults that gives your opponent one of the biggest advantages by having control over the situation!

Therefore fight crazy barnstormers are attractive to watch but if it is in the stretch they are certainly not the ones you should bet on!

 

wasn't the GSD bred as a guarddog? and yes not every one is a good one just like the APBT just a small % is qualified for matching. but that doesnt meen it wont fight or guard like in the GSD case.

 

Lets see where it came from!

GSD usually have been herding dogs like autralian shepherds or border collies or berger de brie.
Later on they tryed to costumize them for military purposes.
So they became quite popular and they try to create an all purpose dog!

Guard dog / SAR / leading dog for blind people etc.

So there still is breeding within working titles like Schutzhund but on a sportive base like described above!

But even a guard dog has to learn the tasks hes intended for otherwise we as humans could tie our shoes without no schooling either!

For example a GSD breeder nearby with highly regarded Sporting Schutzhund dogs had a real bad accident! His wife was too busy managing the kids her job and her husband in the hospital asking me to take care on the dogs for a couple of weeks.
As there wasn´t time to introduce me to them I just had to deal with them right away!
And guess what! Naturaly a guard dog would have tear me into peaces if I would enter his territory, I´m still alive and well!

I just opened the kennels I had to clean and took the dogs out for a walk aswell as trimming them and feeding them!

This was not because of my personal skills it was because these dogs weren´t trained to do so! A dog that has it is maybe one of a hundred without being prepared for his job! It´s more likely that they are no harm at all!

And these are top notch sporting schutzhund dogs with prices over and over!

Even if some dogs are acting mean as hell behind a fence on their own territory over 70 % would do you no harm if you enter! What bothers me are the ones that are standing steady and silent staring at you and then shoot at you! But they are the exception not the rule most of them are bluffers and just making noise once you entered they are quite confused and retreat or switching to submissive behaviour! That doesn´t mean they still won´t bite you in this situation it depends on how strict and confident you´re acting! But as stated before a real guard dog should give shit about you and tear you in pieces immediately!