Topline - level or not?

Agreed.lol

 

Bronson is a better looking dog. I have seen Faith in person too and Bronson is still a better example of a apbt. But the pics of the other two dogs are head on and not side shots. It is hard to tell about their toplines to me. What do you think about these two pics?

 

Those two pics do illustrate different degrees of backlines that aren't level or straight. The first dog could just be in that position unless its butt end is really that much higher than its front end - my dogs will stick their butts in the air like that sometimes. The dog in picture on the right is a better example of what I'm talking about because we don't have to guess if it's in an akward position.

So the question is whether the slightly roached backline on the dog is a fault. Is it a conformation fault in UKC/AKC - yes because they say level topline. So many of the successful working dogs have at least a somewhat roached back that I don't see how it could hurt them. If the dog on the left actually looks that way always, I would say it's not correct for conformation and can't really understand how that configuration could be advantageous.

But here is the ADBA standard - very informative to read this: http://www.adbadog.com/uploads/conformation%20_%20weightpull%20pic/2008%20conformationBreakdwn.pdf

I don't see much about the topline/backline, but many other issues are very specifically spelled-out, like certain physical proportions, etc. It also gets into what would disqualify a dog. Things like human aggression cryptorchidism, etc., but does not mention scars. But the image of the dog in the standard does appear to have a pretty level backline...

 

My point being that pictures are decieving. Like you stated, it depends on where the dog is standing, how it is standing, etc... Here is a better, mostly stacked pic of the first dog. Her topline is fine.

 

level top line = just behind the withers to the croup, LEVEL not flat or straight, referenced to = EQUAL ANGULATION OF FRONT AND REAR ASSEMBLY
roach back refers to slight arch over the loin only, where structural support is weakest,.allows for fexibility, structural strength, & close coupling without shortening or thickening the loin area as compensation for weakness...BOTH features are desirable in IDEAL.

 

Hahaha - good illustration of how a dog with a level topline/backline can appear not to have one. Many show people know how to get their dog into the perfect position. Yet a lot of the pics of working dogs are probably less staged.

So now it gets more complicated - not only trying to determine the pros and cons of level v. roached, but trying to look at pictures in which dogs may be in various positions and not posed by handlers for photographs.

 

I think a little bit of an arch over the loin, as you suggest, may actually add strength to that area. It makes sense - but how do you know this for sure?

 

what do you guys think on my dogs topline. here he is in adba show leaned up.

 

UKC standard "The topline inclines very slightly downward from the withers to a broad, muscular, level back. The loin is short, muscular and slightly arched to the top of the croup, but narrower than the rib cage and with a moderate tuck-up. The croup is slightly sloping downward."
Toplines also look different when a dog is carrying more weight. Meno, I think your dog looks great. I prefer a dog with some roach, I think it gives them some springiness.

 

How did your dog do at the ADBA show? Again, pics can be deceiving, and experts can stack their dogs to make them look a certain way - a way the dog may or may not look otherwise. Your dog looks like he's standing vs. being stacked. He looks well-conditioned, alert, has a nice pump-handle tail, good tuck, nice coat., etc. Angulation appears good, but that's something of a guess due to position of back legs. Your dog has relatively long legs, which the ADBA might like, as they state that dogs should have maximum height for body weight.

To put my opinions in perspective - I'm a shower, but in the AKC, and I have not judged in any registry.

 

Meno, your dog looks great to me. As someone else posted, all of it is related. Your dogs rear end is its drive train. I would think you would want some springiness, or a little curve, there. Seems to me it would make the dog have greater reach with the rear legs.
If I remember correctly, Meno's dog did really well at that show.

 

I think "arch over the loin" is most correct.
I haven't seen any standards in my AKC book that call for a "roach", which is defined as "a convex curvature of the back, involving the thoracic and lumbar regions." I think a true "roach" is incorrect --

Even the Greyhound standard says, "well ARCHED over the loins". The Bedlington does as well.
Many breeds call for an "arch". it is a natural structural feature -- a muscular one -- that serves to connect across an area of no bones. It is a MUSCLE feature and it also enables a dog to be agile and get it's feet up underneath itself. So in a conditioned dog, those muscles are going to be more obvious.

I think at one time the ADBA standard called for a "roach" and that always mystified me as that's not considered a very strong feature....I've seen Pits with a roach and they do look funny to me and not correct at all...I've seen ARCHES over the loin area of varying degree and I think that would be the correct terminology for that feature.

 

Hey boogieman what's the pedigree of your dog bronson? He really is a beautiful animal. Also just got a smart phone so I should be able to finally post pics of my dogs up here....lol. any helpful tips would be appreciated

 

A link was posted by Iron Mike in another thread that reminded me of this thread. The page suggests that the straight back might reduce dexterity as compared with the more "roached" topline, and again referencing that the level topline is something desired in a show dog.

Here is the link, which references a number of issues in addition to toplines: http://ironlinekennels.com/NorrodBillboard/viewtopic.php?t=295

I don't know if I'm completely convinced that a level topline is a detriment, but I have become convinced that an arched topline is and has been present in a number of game dogs, and did not hurt their physical ability.

 

Not sure it's relevant for a game dog. The important part is being able to turn an cover it's haunches with it's mouth. That's why Am Staffs don't make good game dogs; they are too muscle bound and can't cover.

As far as your question, not sure if it's mentioned in the UKC judging. That's a good question.

 

Check the Body section of the UKC standard here (yes, mentions level back): http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/AmericanPitBullTerrierRevisedNovember12008

 

so what do you gather from that? No bow? Evidently.

 

That dog is STRAIGHT!!! as they come...

 

A lot of pits are crossed with grayhound and whippet take a look at michael vicks dogs when DNA test were done half was crossed with grayhound and whippet...

 

I think FD is getting mixed up topline to backline...