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Feed a Canine Athletic Like You Feed a Human Athlete by Bob Stevens

Discussion in 'Health & Nutrition' started by Vicki, Mar 7, 2014.

  1. Vicki

    Vicki Administrator Staff Member

    “Feed a Canine Athletic Like You Feed a Human Athlete” by Bob Stevens

    There are, as we all know, differences in the biochemical makeup between dogs and humans. Dogs, for example, don’t sweat and dogs have a tougher digestive system – genetically they are scavengers that can survive on less nutrition But there are important similarities.

    Just one example is creatine. Creatine is now one of the most popular substances used by all world class athletes – including body builders and football players. It was discovered at the turn of the 20th century, but not popularized until Bob Fritz (created the Unipro that changed to the Peak Performance so many canine athletes used in the 1980s.

    Now it is Animal Naturals – but I have been out of the loop for a long time and know nothing about Animal Natural products – except I have every confidence that as is always been the case the last 20 plus years I am sure they are ahead of their time) introduced it to the athletic world (including myself). I am quite familiar with all the hoopla about Bob and his products. I can tell the reader from my own personal experiences for decades – the critics are full of baloney.

    Back then I knew of some of the world renowned dog fighters (the reader would know the names) used to denigrate the Peak Performance, telling everyone it is hard on the dog’s digestion (it can be if fed incorrectly and in excess which many were prone to do), no good for canine athletic performance (making a long diatribe short). My paradigm, as a journalist for our breed, has always been to listen - but keep my own teeth closed. What those top dogmen didn’t know is that I also knew, on a first name basis, some of the breeders who were distributors of the products (Bob used to choose breeders with a large yard in different regions and sell the products to them at wholesale for them to market as distributors). And I knew that those dogmen who had all those bad things to say, insisting the products did not work – purchased them by the case for themselves and used them on a big scale (I saw the invoices). They just didn’t want others to have that edge. All the sports nutrition products in the world are of absolutely no value if you don’t have something that is game and has ability to work with. But – when you do – with two dogs of otherwise equality – they give an edge. A very deciding edge.

    Most of the readers know that I have never been a dog fighter and I don’t say that to satisfy some legal attorney. It is gospel. I found out the hard way back in the 1970s, when the sport was at best a fine lower than a speeding ticket, that to bring a dog in exactly on weight, ready to perform the most demanding sport on earth – that it involves a whole ball game beyond what those who are not real players realize. But I knew how human martial artists train for battle and what it takes for maximal health and strength. I did then and I do now. Been involved/studying it for half a century now – fifty years. I have always done my own experimentation – what I tried on my dogs I used myself. I think you always have to upgrade. Dogs upgrade and their training upgrades – I think the serious dogman must keep up with the latest in sports nutrition. For those who want it, here is what is new today.

    New in terms of engineering maximal muscle and endurance – and energy. Energy is the operative word here Muscle adds weight but my view is that if it is streamlined and it is not tight then it is protective. Take the dogs stifle. If the dog is a catch dog and a bad news boar hog repeatedly nails him in the stifle, it can sure hamper. Muscle won’t prevent the damage done – but it sure will mitigate it. The same is true in the human martial world. I train and condition my legs so that while a trained Muay Thai can buckle me – it take more on me than most and few sports karate fighters can bother my legs. I am saying muscle is not a panacea, but it protects. I used to keep very lean. Muscle uses Oxygen and large muscle is tight muscle. That is why world class boxers are lean – and those who look impressive – like Evander Holyfield – lack endurance and cannot be effective finishers if the bout is prolonged. That said, I am multi-trained – mixed martial if you will. And grappling emulates what a catch dog does. The catch dog is not boxing, he is grappling. And son – that will drain any boxer – seen it happen for decades. So I now train for protective muscle and power as well as endurance. You need it all or you lose a defining margin (especially at my age!). If someone gets me in an arm bar – a skinny fast but weak arm is detrimental. When wresting around in a hot humid swamp with a boss hog – a pit had better have endurance or the hog will wear him down. That has to be a given however. In addition, the dog must have strength and power to prevail if the hog is a bad one. The ability to continue when cut to pieces and losing fluids fast comes from more than aerobic endurance. I am saying you have to consider the trade-off. Muscle is dense and heavy. Big muscle takes up oxygen much faster than lean muscle. But the ideal is a balance so that you have protective powerful muscle with endurance. I mean the catch dog had better have lasting endurance – and beyond though, because he ain’t running no marathon. He is pushing around his own weight.

    If the reader doesn’t think that drains energy much quicker than running a marathon or engaging in sprints, try this – put your own weight on a barbell and go for a hundred squats for say five minutes. Set the barbell down and grab a heavy sandbag and wrestle around with it for another five minutes. Then do some pushups with a weighted back pack – then do hill repeats with the weighted back pack – you get the picture. Now – run for five minutes – or even sprint five minutes or even engage hill repeats without the weight and not preceded by doing the squats. Compare – you’ll see what pushing your own weight around does to your energy bank. What if you had to do that for half an hour? Longer?

    I think every man who is involved in canine athletics should try that experiment. Then the next time you are tempted to short cut, even just a little, your dogs preparation, you can see you are not justified in looking down on the dog who appears to lack game. But I am serious – Really. Try the squat, weighted pushups, weighted hill repeats program. Do it until you are dizzy, your legs feel like rubber and your mind tries to tell you that you can’t do another rep. Do another rep. Keep going. That will tell you more than a thousand X a thousand words. Feel what you need to do for your dog, you’ll be a much better trainer for it.

    [​IMG]
    Bob Stevens on the right

    Source: Game Dog History | Dedicated to Gamedogs - All about Game Dog History
     
  2. Vicki

    Vicki Administrator Staff Member

    Feed a Canine Athletic Like You Feed a Human Athlete by Bob Stevens Part II

    Feed a Canine Athletic Like You Feed a Human Athlete by Bob Stevens Part II

    Energy. the operative word is ENERGY. For endurance, you need energy. For muscle growth you need energy because muscle grows fastest and strongest when you train a muscle with intensity. And the operative word for energy is ATP. No that isn’t something Native Americans lived in. It is adenosine triphosphate which is a vital molecule found in the body that provides the energy for endurance and muscle growth – for strength and performance. ATP is in the forefront today in human athletic performance nutritional supplementations. ATP is a nucleic acid that contains three (hence the term tri phosphate) phosphates that when activated releases a blast of energy that fuels muscle contraction and many other body functions. When ATP binds with certain receptors, it causes the release of nitric oxide (NO) in the blood. NO lines the blood vessels and when released, it causes a very potent dilation of the blood vessels and that means increase blood flow. If the blood is highly nutrient rich (a variety of healthy proteins), muscle grows healthier and, stronger. The increased blood flow also means less oxygen is required – so aerobic activity (endurance) is enhanced and recovery from overstressed muscles is expedited. You want ATP in the muscle for muscle contraction. When the third phosphate detaches, it releases a tremendous burst of energy. But unless extra is supplied – the burst of energy is short lived – which is the normal situation. The more ATP in the muscle cells, the more reps a weight trainer can perform – and the more hill repeats with heavier loads – and the longer a dog can run a mill or stay with his own weight and more catching hog. For decades, then, the athletic performance industry has engineered ways to drop excess ATP into the muscle. One hindrance to that concept is that taking oral ATP, initially, was found to be unproductive on any significant scale because the ATP becomes absorbed before it comes to the muscle. A number of chemical stimulants have been discovered, however, that activates the body to generate ATP itself and push it into the muscle. A number of processes accomplish this. One is the krebs cycle, which is an oxygen fueled process that burns glucose (sugar), fat, and amino acids to create ATP. This energy results in prolonging muscle and cardio endurance. A number of supplements have been proven through quality research and extensively used in the bodybuilding sport (and you find them splashed all over pages in the muscle magazines) and heavy contact sports like football or any sport that requires the athlete to pump iron extensively use them. Importantly – mixed martial artists like the UFC fighters use this stuff training for battle. I use it myself so I attest – it works. There are three that are particularly popular.

    1) Creatine. Probably the most famous, today, is the creatine phosphororylation process. I have already mentioned, it was Bob Fritz that was responsible for the popularity of creatine in the sports nutrition world. He was the first person to introduce it to the athletic world in the mid-1980s. I, then, was one of the first to use this supplement. Part of the discovery of creatine came from studying the diet of wolves. The diet of wolves (wild dogs in effect) was of interest because of their athletic performance. Athletic because it was observed a wild wolf can range as much as 45 miles in a full day, and some a hundred miles. Wolves have been clocked at 24 to 28 mph for up to a mile. In Montana a wolf, being chased by a game warden, was clocked at 35 to 40 mph for four miles across a frozen lake. And power – wolves do not enter weight pulling contests, but as few as two wolves can take down an 800 pound moose and drag it about a hundred yards. I can (and will later) write a whole article about the diet of wolves – but one important ingredient they consume is creatine. Creatine comes from meat. But the kicker is – man – in all our infinite wisdom – trying to be smarter than God – we have come up with bigger fatter cows – but unhealthy nutrient deficient cow meat. It has been discovered that wild meat (deer) contains as much as TEN TIMES the amount of creatine as domesticated – cows, chickens, etc. Parenthetically, Don Mayfield used to get large pots of deer meat from hunters, I am told, to feed I guess about a hundred dogs. He didn’t know, I don’t think, how right on he was. Today you cannot pick up a muscle building magazine that does not have articles about creatine and chock full of companies marketing creatine products. Today, creatine is one of the most extensively studied performance enhancing substances, and touted to be the most effective supplement for shooting ATP into the muscle. This creates ENERGY for the muscle to perform longer and harder – and that increases strength. Creatine increases the time muscles can exert maximal power. It shoots ATP into the muscle providing anaerobic power. A human can perform more reps lifting weights and a runner can sprint faster, jump higher hurdles, and a baseball player can throw harder.

    2)Citrulline Malate. This is the amino acid citrulline attached to malic acid, a molecule involved in the krebs (citric) cycle. The malic acid burns lactic acid prolonging the athletes performance. the citrulline removes ammonia from the body. Lactic acid is a compound that build when amino acids are metabolized during intense exercise and it is toxic to the muscle resulting in muscle fatigue until it is flushed out. Citrulline promotes energy production and simultaneously flushes out fatigue-causing metabolic waste. Removing the ammonia delays fatigue. citrulline is converted to arginine in the body and arginine produces the nitric oxide (NO) mentioned above. As stated, NO enhances blood flow and greater blood flow means greater oxygen delivery to the muscle – and indirectly this enhances ATP production in the muscle, resulting in greater energy for anaerobic POWER.. Citrulline has been proven in the medical community for use reducing muscle fatigue in the elderly. Citrulline is made from argenine and ornithine. It has been proven in both human and animal studies. From Wikipedia I learned that citrulline comes from the word citrullus, a Latin word for watermelon. It is made, in part, from watermelon. Puritan’s Pride (I get some of my supplements from – Google them) has a citrulline plus watermelon supplement.

    3) Pyruvate. Pyruvate is an organic acid, a natural byproduct of glucose metabolism. When you supplement with extra pyruvate, the aforementioned krebs cycle picks it up and provides the muscle with extra ATP, burning more fat and glucose. It greatly enhances burning fat, increased endurance and ATP activity/energy production. You can find numerous sports performance studies that confirm this. One gram per ten pounds body weight is suggested. Too much on one serving with humans can give gastric irritation, dogs handle it better though. Best is to spread it out in several small feedings. Google Bodytech Pyruvate and Pinnacle Pyruvate or Genis Nutrition for some good sources.

    4) Ribose. Ribose is a sugar that is part of the high-energy phosphate that forms part of the ATP molecule. Providing extra ribose also enhances muscle endurance. Doesn’t directly make you stronger, but it allows extra reps pumping iron, extra reps for a dog pulling a load, longer time on a springpole etc. In that respect it makes the body tougher and stronger. D-ribose supplements also enhances recovery of ATP levels following intense training. It kind of works like a steroid in this respect.

    5) ATP. As mentioned above, it was initially discovered that supplementing with pure ATP had little effect on muscle because it gets absorbed before it gets into the muscle. However, it has since been discovered and is now all over all the training magazines, that ENTERICALLY coated ATP gets shuffled directly into the intestines where it can be effectively absorbed. Coopers Institute in Dallas did a classic and now famous study that got published in the Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise periodical. They used what is now called Peak ATP (Google it). they found it significantly enhances muscle ATP. They also found that when stacked with creatine the effect on the muscle is greatly enhanced. The International Journal of Sports Nutrition (June 1999)(and a laundry list of other published quality studies) reported significant anaerobic performance and body composition and endurance with these stacked supplements.

    Stacked is performance supplementation parlance for synergistically (the sum of the parts taken together can be greater total effect than the sum of the individual effects) combining to enhance effectiveness. This means that when you “stack” creatine, citrulline malate, pyruvate, and ribose, with enterically coated ATP – you get WOW!

    Loading is another performance concept, It means that when you begin supplementation you introduce it with three to five times as much for about a week and then you level off to the prescribed amount. Most of the supplement containers instruct this but it is mentioned here to explain why. At introduction, the muscles are like the empty cup. When you load heavy the muscle soaks it up. Then it will absorb only the prescribed amount and any more is a waste and can be too much. But when you “load” – you enhance the effect. “Again only provide these athletic enhancements when your dog is undergoing real heavy training – and recovering from. So about six weeks out from a long hunt in the swamps, for example. After the dog recovers, wean off until the next outing. Personally, I am now too old to compete in the ring – my last full contact kickboxing event was in 2006 in which I won each round unanimous. But now I just show up at the gym and spar and train – too old to compete. However – I still take the supplements. But I stagger them taking them only when I put myself through some heavy training, discontinue when I slack off – it is not good for me to stay overtraining. I train 7 days a week. But when I “slack off” I do mostly my karate kata, iron palm and iron body, running without sprints enjoying the country, ease up on squats, deadlifts – the emphasis is away from heavy to maintenance. You see.

    The next question is – for a dog – how much and how often? I am astonished that for all the years of human sports enhancement study – most of the supplements say take such-and-such grams. To me, it matters whether you are, like myself, 5 7″ and 150 pounds – or 6 3″ and 250 pounds. So I think (but don’t really know) the thing to do is assume the suggested quantity is for a 180 pound human athlete. So for a 45 pound dog – I’d say grind the supplements in one of those little bowls with a vitamin crusher you can get in health food stores, and go with 1/4 of the human dose. Or – just go ahead and give the human capsules – but only during very serious, hard training. This is expensive and I’m not sure if you don’t get all of this in Bob Fritz’s new product K9 Super Fuel (by Animal Naturals). I don’t know enough on K9 super Fuel to write about it. I’d Google it if interested.

    This article is about ATP and I could write a book on human performance enhancement. Briefly, for now, you can “stack” even more by combining Creatine-AKG with Glutamine AKG mixed with the aforementioned Citrulline Malate (AKG is another krebs cycle). This combination is especially productive in shooting creatine and glutamine into the muscle cells without loss. A product called ANAVOL (found at GNC) has these powerful ingredients. You have to peruse the muscle magazines and Google around to find the stuff – it is all over. Caffeine also enhances, synergistically the effectiveness of these supplements. Plain old black, cold coffee does it.

    There is another serious way of boosting/bolstering the effectiveness of this supplementation. Massage. I can and will make a whole article on this at a later date. The subject is dealt with extensively in the “Scientific Conditioning” chapter of my Dogs of Velvet and Steel, Revised Edition (2012) book (ATP is also discussed). Massage is an aspect of conditioning the importance of which is little comprehended by today’s handler/conditioners. I suggest, again, that the best way to understand it is to feel it. Put in a very hard – hard as you have ever done training. Then go get a massage from a competent professional masseuse. You become a better trainer when you fully dig by experiencing. A quality, professional massage expedites the flushing out of lactic acid and stimulates the muscle by providing a fresh supply of oxygen rich blood to the areas where it is needed. For many, a lack of comprehending the extent of the benefits means the time doesn’t get justified. Find out. Try it on yourself. There is a reason boxers, gymnasts – all contact sports players, get regular massages. I know. I get them myself. My masseuse is also a registered nurse and physical therapist. She stretches, elongates my muscles and she works on my hip and shoulder and leg hinges stretching and strengthening my range of movement. Gymnasts and ballet athletes train 6 to 8 hours a day. How? It isn’t all aerobic and anaerobic. Many hours are spent stretching – and massage. Gives them POWER – explosive power, as well as expediting recovery. Here is a very concise explanation. We all know that we build muscle, recover from hard training and overall get tougher from the hormone testosterone. Training stimulates testosterone production. But there is a flip to that. Navy Seals had blood tests at the end of BUDS training in a study. They had extremely low testosterone, high estrogen levels. Another test revealed the same with Marines at the end of boot camp. Of course rest rebuilds the body’s ability to produce testo. But very recent research indicates that anabolic condition is a function of the body’s testo/cortisol ratio. Researchers at Thomas Jefferson Medical College in Philly found that engaging in Yoga after heavy training VERY SIGNIFICANTLY lowers cortisol blood levels and therefore raises blood testo (cited in Muscle & Fitness November 2009). Also cited in M &F – a study presented at the 2003 Annual Meeting of the Endocrine Society reported very significant reduction in cortisol levels following a Yoga session. That is just one of several studies going back decades. That is just one of my many tricks of the trade. I generally follow my serious hard training with some relaxing stretching and Yoga. It works, folks. Again, many pages are devoted to this in the Dogs of Velvet and Steel book. Massage, to me, is a form of canine Yoga. Want an extra boost to that? Music. Research also shows the same effect on the body’s hormones from music. And – the most productive music is – classical – like they play at symphonies – and (to make a longer story short), the most productive of all is Mozart. I often do this play Mozart while engage Yoga. What about dogs do I hear? Well – the initial research was done on dogs! Found it works VERY EFFECTIVELY. So they tried it on human athletes and found it works with humans as well.

    I have to inject another tip. I used to work some dogs with a dogman who taught me this. You need a long, long trail through woods and fields for best. After very hard mill and spring pole work, you feed your dog nutrient rich food/supplements (nutrient dense, small amount) well watered. Then your partner walks ahead of you with the dog he is working. You stay back about 5 yards or however it takes for your dog to be constantly straining to get up front but not too close. At the end of several miles, you turn around and walk back, you are in front, your partner’s dog is straining. This is called blood volume training (BVT)(the term is cited in Muscle Mag INTL. but the concept has been mine for decades – and I have used similar on myself decades – i.e. push my truck, drag a truck tire, barefoot but that’s another story, slow weighted pushups, etc. – same concept). You get peak contraction while the dog strains. This floods the muscles with nutrient rich blood (hence the term BVT) and you have hyper-hydrated or pumped the dog’s muscularity. When you have finished you spend a good long time with quality massage. The strained walking is intense antagonistic contraction. The massage is a blended protraction. For the experienced catch dog – massage, done properly, smoothes and dissipates scar tissue – and scar tissue tightens and stiffens athletic ability. I KNOW massage smoothes out the scar tissue. I have decades of scar tissue that was tight and was smoothed out to renew fast explosive muscle in myself.

    The salient aspect of it here is that massage also works those supplements into the body. There are a kitchen sink full of sports supplements – branched chained amino acids (bcaa)- a lot – but this article is about CONCEPTS, not specifics and the focus here is on energy boosting. It is worth mention, the bcaa leucine boosts glucose, other amino acid muscle repair and push creatine into muscle cells. Massage flushes in and out fresh oxygen and nutrient rich blood in and out of the muscles. Nutrient-rich is the key here. You enhance the effect with the supplements mentioned – along with quality muscle repairing and building proteins that you must supply in addition to the ATP krebs cycle mentioned in this article. In other word the effectiveness of the time you put into giving your dog’s massage is correlated directly with the quality of the blood ingredients.

    Yes, these supplements work. I consume them myself. I m not a dog fighter. I am a human fighter. Am I muscular? Yes I am. Lean and muscular? Yes. Do I have large freaky muscles like a body builder? No. Tight muscle? NO. I pump iron, but I also stretch a lot – every day (arms and shoulders, back, not just legs). Do I have muscular endurance? Yes. For many rounds of mixed martial arts sparring? Depends, of course, on the fighter! But in general, yes, even an opponent who outweighs me fifty pounds. Not brag – a point – - I am not a dog fighter and I know there is more to putting a pit dog on weight pit ready than just physical training. But there is much the modern human athlete does that works for the canine athlete, be it the hunting dog or the Schutzhund dog – or the Iditarod sled dog. In other words it is not just something I read about in a book, I’m saying again, this stuff works. I works because it allows the athlete, human or canine, to work longer and harder. So – don’t feed it unless you work the dog longer and harder. This is not for a half hour walk or a half hour on a treadmill. This is for severe, draining, gut busting work. Serious training only. Otherwise these supplements can be toxic and a waste. These supplements are behind a significant aspect of athletic performance. Want a super canine athlete? Feed the dog like a human super athlete. None of this can make a dog game – but it will build a very tough dog.

    Source: Game Dog History | Dedicated to Gamedogs - All about Game Dog History
     
  3. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Good read. Interesting. Lots of good information. S
     
  4. Dorito

    Dorito Pup

    Lots of information you can get from any book about nutrition and/or the body. It would be nice if good ol' Bob could write something on canine nutrition, but I don't see that forthcoming.
     
  5. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Tons of articles on canine nutrition, just not with the bulldog and the bulldog's job in mind. The bull dogger must take bits and pieces from those articles and apply them the best they can. MUSHER.COM is a sled dog magazine that covers a lot of canine nutrition research. Great articles on increased fat content in the canine diet. Some of the greyhound sites do the same. The bull dogger has to get a little bit from each and go by trial and error.

    There is no research out there with the test being a dog in combat for two hours. Just does not happen that way. S
     
  6. Yas

    Yas Big Dog

    You can tell that because of his athletic background the guy knows a lot more about conditioning dogs than most however there are some inaccuracies. It's hard to read without skipping through.
    A muscle can be both big and lean it doesn't have to be one or the other.
    Big muscle is not tight, tightness comes from muscle being developed in less than a full range of motion.
    Big muscled athletes (Evander Holyfield) given as an example lack endurance because they don't train for endurance. Evander Holyfield was trained by Mister Olympia Lee Haney, bodybuilding training is different.
    Anaerobic endurance is different to aerobic endurance.
    Boxers and grapplers do use the same energy systems, both have maximal efforts combined with low % efforts. None work for long periods at a constant sub maximal intensity like an endurance athlete.
    Train for endurance (aerobic) and there is a loss in strength and speed. Also fast twitch fibres/fibers when trained for endurance will start to behave like slow twitch.
    Anaerobic endurance/capacity is achieved by the body being trained at anaerobic threshold and so adapting so that maximal efforts can be achieved time after time for a prolonged period.
    Besides high level MMA conditioning being superior to boxing the main difference is that because of grappling MMA is suited to a large part of the training being dedicated to static holds.
    The training experiment obviously would be very difficult but it is endurance and so for a real athletes this would lead to a loss of strength and speed, and so power.
    The best supplements for delaying the critical drop off point are Creatine and Ribose.
    I also have found that when using human supplements for a dog a quarter of the recommended dosage is a good amount.
    Anything relaxing after training reduces cortisol which is why coffee should not be consumed for at least 2 hrs post workout. The best way to reduce cortisol is to use alkaline water.
    Like I said I skipped through it but the guy obviously has a better understanding and greater knowledge than most of the old fashioned stuff that you read.
     
  7. Flipside

    Flipside CH Dog

    Good points Slim and Yas. I believe the article is old...
    Good feed, covering all your macro needs and key supplements given at the right times goes a long way.
     
  8. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Agreed. One of the things about Bob's book is that it is now old information. In its day it was state of the art information. Supplementation and canine nutrition have come a long way. And with that said, the dogs have not evolved to a point where that old information is no longer effective. It may be a product or a combo product out there that takes the place of a supplement he talks about (or he used personally) that may work a little better, may be more efficient and may be cheaper but the stuff he talks about worked then and will work now.

    Lots of information is written about human nutrition and human conditioning and then guys automatically think it is transferrable to the dogs. Not always true. The next thing is breaking it down to dosages. Not many human supplements have a dosage per lb. So in turn it is difficult to break it down to a dog's dosages. Most creatine supplements recommend a 5mg dose. It does not indicate if the person weighs #150 or #250, still 5mg. Reading a lot of sites/posts/forums people use the same 5mg for a dog.

    Granted a lot of it is passed thru, but one it is a waste of money and two, no need to make a dog process anything that will be of no value (out thru urination/waste).

    Good posts. Lots of information out there but just not bull dog specific. One has to go find it, give it a whirl, and then decide where to go from there. S
     
  9. Dorito

    Dorito Pup

    Slim, I understand there's no information in regards to nutrition and matching dogs. I was simply making the comment that the information Bob Stevens has there is basic, run of the mill information you can gather from any nutrition type book. It's just that generally, bulldog people are lazy as all get out OR they subscribe to the same ignorance that people 20-30 years subscribed to. That's what was meant in regards to my comment. I know all about the sled dog articles as I've read them over and over for some years now, always looking to gleam something from them that I may have missed.
     
  10. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    No problem. Bob's information is old, and now considered run of the mill, but when the book was written it was the latest thing going. The thing that made it different was he working along side the dogs and using some of the same supplements. It was a great book for its time.

    Generally, yes, bulldog people are lazy, some ignorant and some hung on 30 year old information. No doubts there. On the flipside, the dogs have not evolved to the point where nutrition that worked 30 years ago will not work now. The sled dog articles concerning the way the dogs were fed years ago, then to kibble and raw combos, back to feeding a high fat diet like years before. Even after years of time passing by, the high fat content still works. Same with the bulldogs.

    Another good read is Sportvet.com Several good nutrition articles there, especially the high fat content approach.

    This would be another topic altogether but if a guy has been feeding corn flakes and cabbage for thirty years, and winning, the it would be hard pressed to change his mind. All the articles, and all the research might not amount to a hill of beans to the guy that is winning on corn flakes and cabbage. S
     
  11. Dorito

    Dorito Pup

    Arleigh Reynolds is who I've read, and re-read, when it came to the high fat approach. Bob Fritz was always the man who I looked to about nutrition when all that was coming out as he was actually helping to work bulldogs for contests and not simply talk about human nutrition, etc. Some of his ideas about carbs were totally wrong then, as were most people's, but he was putting the work in. The famous picture of Chinaman, standing all shiny, was after V & Fritz worked him on Fritz' Conditioning to Win keep.

    I agree that dogs have not evolved to where nutrition 3 decades ago wouldn't work today. What HAS evolved is the train of thought and proof of what actually gives the dog more energy in less food, thereby giving the dog more stamina, etc etc when it counts most. Unfortunately, what may be typical of sled dog people and bulldog people can't be compared. You still have "dogmen" believing in carb loading, etc as being the best way to feed a dog for a show, when that's not even the case. Never mind the point about changing their mind, it's simply not near the best thing.

    If a guy feeds corn flakes and cabbage and wins, you may not change his mind. What you may do is tease him with the ability to get his dog in better shape and maybe win even more!
     
  12. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    True. I agree. There are tons who still carb load in the dog game. Arleigh Reynolds has an article that is leading the other way about carbs. Not so much as a nutritional aid, but it keeps the "guts moving", as it is a slower and more deliberate digestion process. For the sled dogs it will help is staying warm during the night, and would work the same with the dogs in keep. (Dogs kept outside during the keep especially). He gives an example of weighing dogs in the study and they were weighed twice per day (just about like the later stages of the keep). The dogs were fed the same high fat/high protein diet on one side and some carbs on the other. (both worked the same) Just for numbers sake the dogs without the carbs dropped as much as a pound, some even two during the shivering of a cold night. The dogs with the carbs maintained the weight more consistently.

    Again, lots of bulldogs are kept inside and not a lot of dogs being done in the artic, so the bulldog guy must take some sled dog information and apply it to his dogs. Personally, I still feed rice to my dogs. I have been since the 80's and doubt I will ever change. I actually increase the rice during the winter months. I use it in keep as well. I have read tons about carbs and dogs and the nutritional value, but I feel like it is working for me. Unless I started to see adverse reactions that I attributed to the rice I will more than likely be feeding rice for years to come.

    I agree the train of thought has changed over the years. I actually saw a difference when I switched to the high fat diets, especially to the dogs that were fed high fat diets 8-10 weeks prior to the work starting. It is like we were in mid-season for in the first week (energy level/recovery for the next day).

    Great series of posts. I will look back and try to post the article with the reference to the carbs. I am not sure if it were from the MUSHER mag or the e-zine he writes for as well on Canine conditioning. S
     
  13. Yas

    Yas Big Dog

    I understand that there is very little quality info on K9 nutrition but it would be a mistake to compare a sled dog which is an ultra endurance athlete to any of the bull breeds which are power athletes.
    Yes the bull breeds need endurance but anaerobic is very different to aerobic endurance.
    Fat as long as it's good quality fat is always good but if it comes from poor quality meat then it should not be consumed as any kind of crap that the animal had whether ingested or injected is stored in the fat.
    Carb loading when for an athletic event is only good if the event lasts longer than 90 mins.
    Carb loading is also done for aesthetic purposes to make the muscles 'look' bigger and with more definition. Water is loaded while carbs are depleted then water is depleted and carbs are loaded resulting in the water being pulled from under the skin into the muscles.
    Any bull breed if conditioned to work as nature intended without trying to alter fibre/fiber type and natural power is not suited to any kind of endurance event of 90+ minutes and if the dogs natural strengths of strength & speed combined (power) are developed properly along with the ability to work at close to a maximal effort in regards to both muscular and energy system performance time and time again then it would never have to.
     
  14. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Agreed, but then again my point has been the bulldog guy has no research on his side. He must always take bits and pieces of other canine research and go from there. I agree with your post about ultra-endurance, and especially about the power (speed and strength). There are no studies out there that give results based on a dog in combat.

    So instead of defining the differences between the two one must look for similarities and learn from there. The bulldog has been wrestling in and out of hold, he is 'spent', fatigued, worn down and then he goes into a flurry or a burst. Where does the energy come from? The diet must be the supply. Then look at that sled dog, he has pulled that sled for miles. He is beat down and tired. And then there is the finish line, they burst to the line. They find the reserves/the stores to explode from a drained state. Very similar, the commonality would be the previous conditioning and nutrition. Both on the other end of he starting point after large output over extended periods of time and then explode. Very similar. S
     
  15. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    yas i disagree with a few of your ideas but would be interested in your response.you state bull breeds(game dogs in context) are power athletes
    and not suited to go 90+min
    that they need anaerobic endurance not aerobic endurance
    that they will never have to go 90+min if their natural strength and speed(power) are trained along with anaerobic threshold training.
    that fast twitch fibers start to behave like slow twitch fibers if aerobic training is used and that aerobic training leads to a loss in strength and speed (power)

    As i understand it the original rules of the sport were designed to produce the superlative fighting animal that would not stop regardless of whether an opponent was killed or dead from exhaustion,not simply a contest to decide a comparative winner or loser.With no time limit to a contest the dogs had to endure more than any other animal both psychologically and physiologically during a contest, & history has many examples of contest exceeding 90+min even by considerable margins, so to me the game dog by definition is an endurance athlete.
    you state that fast twitch fibers start to behave like slow twitch fibers if aerobic endurance training is used, my issue with that statement is what about when combined with strength and power training?I dont think it really matters from a conditioning point of view because the whole organism must respond to the demands of a contest.Game dogs come in many shapes & sizes, with many different natural attributes, some are long winded some arent, some are more powerful than
    others naturally, all must adapt to the demands of a contest designed originally to produce the gamest dog possible not the most powerful or one who could win quickest.
    You state that training for aerobic endurance leads to a loss in strength and speed(power).i dont see it as an issue either for the simple reason that athletes who do use aerobic conditioning still demonstrate high levels of power relative to their sport & even if their was a loss in the ability to produce maximal strength & power, i dont see these as requirements demanded in a dog match,while conditioning the aerobic system would be.Aerobic work is known to help with regeneration and recovery from high intensity workouts and to off set fatigue.During submaximal prolonged activities like muscular endurance work, glucose and free fatty acids are used to provide the fuel,oxygen availability and the
    aerobic conditioning level being critical in whether glucose and fatty acids are oxidised or whether the muscles rely on oxidation of carbohydrates alone contributing to an increase in fatigue.When creatine phosphate is depleted, muscle
    glycogen is consumed and the ability to maintain high force is reduced as ATP is produced at lower levels than it is consumed, meaning even for speed power sports decent aerobic conditioning is important.
    As far as conditioning goes, the key to athletic performance is how fast ATP can be rebuilt. The faster it is rebuilt, the faster the muscles can contract, and the faster the athlete can compete. The body has three energy systems,which one is used will depend on how quickly the ATP must be rebuilt.The three energy systems that rebuild ATP are these: two anaerobic systems - creatine phosphate and glycolysis, and the aerobic system. Each energy system has positive aspects the other two don’t have. But each system also has negatives the other two don’t have. That’s why we need three. During training or a contest the body is using all three energy systems. For a top performance the three systems must be developed in an optimal way, so that all are balanced correctly. In reality the endurance athlete only
    needs to worry about two of the systems, the aerobic system and the glycolytic system.meaning the dominant energy systems would be anaerobic lactic and aerobic.The aerobic system provides nearly all the energy during an endurance
    event and the stronger it is, the faster an endurance athlete will be to perform during a contest.the strength of the anaerobic system is also important and training both energy systems is the key to success.
    Carbohydrates in the form of lactate are the most desirable fuel for endurance sports because they lead to a faster rebuild of ATP and enable faster contraction and a speedier performance for athletes.
    At high intensity exercise few, if any, fats are being used for aerobic metabolism. And if the muscles are glycogen-depleted as in the later stages of a contest, the athlete must perform slower. They cannot will their limbs move any faster no matter how hard they try. They have no carbohydrates for metabolism.
    There are no negative byproducts of the aerobic system: only water and carbon dioxide which an athlete sweats and exhales.However, there is one negative, heat, and this has to be carefully considered during training. As the use of the aerobic
    system at high levels a lot of heat is generated in the cells, and this heat accelerates the breakdown of the cells. Too much breakdown and the athlete will lose aerobic capacity. That is why training at or above threshold must be limited
    in a training program.The aerobic system is by far the most important source for energy. It is important to understand the dual role of lactate: an output of the anaerobic system and the most important fuel for the aerobic system. For a long duration contest, the pyruvate/lactate for fuel is limited and the muscles will
    use a large amount of fats for fuel. But the more carbohydrates available, the faster one will perform. Since the carbohydrates come only from the anaerobic system,Without it providing the carbohydrates and some high-energy
    molecules in addition to the small amounts of ATP, aerobic metabolism would be much slower.
    in order to train all the muscle fibers aerobically (the main objective is to increase the mitochondrial content of each, different stimuli are needed for each type of muscle fiber. Fast twitch fibers do not respond to the same training approach as slow twitch fibers do. So it is necessary to train each differently.
    Also what works with one type of fiber may be detrimental with another. So training has to be a constant give and take as one slowly builds each type of fiber aerobically.
    The anaerobic system is a key element in accessing the aerobic system. The aerobic system provides nearly all the energy in an endurance event but much of this energy is unavailable because there is an interaction of the aerobic system with the anaerobic system. Thus, the anaerobic system must also be trained so as to let the body utilize the aerobic energy source to its optimal level.
    Their are three pure muscle fiber types (slow twitch, fast twitch oxidative and fast twitch glycolytic) and hybrids of these three fiber types. The mitochondria content of each type of fiber is different but each is capable of aerobic metabolism even if they are fast twitch glycolytic fibers which are considered the lowest in term of aerobic energy potential. But aerobic energy is produced in the mitochondria of these cells so the density of mitochondria is important for aerobic capacity even in
    these so call non aerobic fibers. So training all fibers to increase their aerobic capacity is essential for an optimal performance by an endurance athlete.
    Also each type of muscle fiber has to be trained differently, the optimal training of one type of fiber may actually be harmful to the training of another fiber type. Fast twitch fibers respond better for aerobic development to high intensity exercise but this has a negative effect on slow twitch fibers.
    The aerobic system is the most important of the energy systems and provides most of the energy for any event over 2 minutes. It is extremely important both for training and for a contest. A strong aerobic system not only provides energy for the contest but enables the athlete to raise the intensity and volume of training. Also a strong anaerobic system during the training period enables the athlete to complete more intense and longer workouts than would a low anaerobic capacity. However, during a contest a high anaerobic capacity will inhibit performance.
    The aerobic and anaerobic capacity of the athlete determine how much aerobic energy gets delivered. An athlete has a specific aerobic capacity or VO2 max but not all of this is available for a contest or for training.
    What determines how much is available during a contest is related to the strength of the anaerobic capacity. A higher anaerobic capacity means less is available, a lower anaerobic capacity means more is available.
    All physiological training affects each system. Very simply, its important to know what a specific workout does to each system.Anaerobic capacity directly affects aerobic power, which is how much of one's aerobic capacity that can be used during a competitive event.
    The best way to train both systems is a combination of low-level workouts and very high intense training, though training at other intensities is sometimes useful. Complicating the training problem is that there are elements of the aerobic capacity system that respond differently to various training approaches. There are three types of muscle fibers as previously stated. Building aerobic capacity in one requires workouts that might not help the other fibers or even be detrimental. Research has shown that even fast-twitch glycolytic fibers can develop a substantial mitochondrial content and thus produce significant aerobic energy.
    Slow twitch fibers respond to slow training and high intensity training does not train them any better. But fast twitch fibers respond best to high intensity workouts. Training that is too hard and/or too long will break down the body too much and will actually impede the process of super-compensation or increasing aerobic capacity.Because using too much high intensity training ends up breaking down too much and low intensity training builds mitochondrial content adequately, the low level training is preferred. The athlete must use high intensity training in small amounts to train the other fiber types and when necessary raise anaerobic capacity.
    Another very important function of low intensity training is that it speeds up recovery or regeneration and Rest or regeneration is the most essential part of training for inducing optimal biological adaptations.
    Each athlete is different and may not adapt the same way to similar training approaches. If you start out following one method of training, the athlete may not respond the same way as another will.Some adapt using certain workouts while others do not. Two athletes may have very different fiber types and these fiber types respond differently to low and high level workouts.
    VO2 max is aerobic capacity or the maximum rate of energy production by the aerobic system.
    VO2 steady state is the amount of aerobic energy that is being used during a sub-maximal steady state exercise.
    VLamax is anaerobic capacity or the maximum rate of energy production by the glycolytic system. It is sometimes designated by the term Plamax or maximum production of lactate. In reality this is the maximum rate of production of pyruvate and lactate but since lactate is what is measured “La” has been used for this term.
    VLa (the production of lactate) at any steady state level is a function of VO2 max, VO2 at that level and VLamax.
    As the athlete increases in speed and increases his oxygen uptake, the amount of lactate produced also starts to rise.
    At first it will rise very slowly but as speed increases not only will oxygen uptake increase but so will the production
    of lactate. So at very low levels the anaerobic system that produces the lactate is being used only sparingly but at higher effort levels, the percentage of energy supplied by anaerobic energy increases and then reaches a point where it
    starts to increase very rapidly. The amount of lactate produced by the glycolytic system depends not only on the strength of the anaerobic system (VLamax)
    but also on the strength of the aerobic system.The muscle must choose how to replenish the ATP and as the aerobic capacity increases it chooses to replace more of the ATP by aerobic processes at every effort level.
    An athlete will generate considerably less lactate at lower VLamax rates as well as fewer hydrogen ions. This means that the muscles will be less acidic and will be able to contract more freely at higher percentages of VO2 max. For endurance
    athletes this is highly desirable as they will be able to compete at a much higher percentage of VO2 max before generating large amounts of lactate.
    So what is the proper anaerobic capacity for an athlete? That depends on the event the athlete is training for and the strength of the aerobic system. No matter what the event, more aerobic capacity is always better. However, this is far
    from true for anaerobic capacity. Anaerobic capacity has to be adjusted to aerobic capacity and the event.
    The relative strength of the aerobic and anaerobic systems determines substrate utilization for ATP replacement.
    As an athlete goes through the training process these energy systems will change depending upon the training stimulus and subsequent adaptation. This means that the proportion of ATP replacement by each system will change accordingly.
    This is reflected in the following three principles of lactate production:
    Intensity Principle – Lactate production increases as intensity increases (within each individual athlete).
    Aerobic Capacity Principle - As aerobic capacity increases the utilization of the anaerobic system will be less at every effort level if nothing else changes. Less lactate will be produced at each effort level.
    Anaerobic Capacity Principle – As anaerobic capacity increases the utilization of the aerobic system will be less at every effort level if nothing else changes. More lactate will be produced at each effort level. The reverse of this is also true. As the anaerobic capacity decreases the utilization of the aerobic system will be higher at every effort level.Less lactate will be produced at each effort level.
    One of the important implications of the last principle is that the amount of the aerobic system an athlete can access during a contest is dependent upon the strength of the anaerobic system. The stronger the anaerobic system, the lower the percentage of aerobic capacity an athlete will reach at the maximum lactate steady state. For longer contests this is one of the most important factors affecting performance. Essentially, the anaerobic system interacts with and influences the
    aerobic system. It determines how much can get used. An athlete may have a huge aerobic capacity and not be able to access most of it because of the anaerobic capacity.
    As explained both energy systems should be trained for optimal performance, but what type of strength is required?
    no matter how intensive or comprehensive it is, strength training cannot result in adequate adaption and have a positive influence in every sport or event unless the specific physiological needs of the given sport are addressed. If a low repetition strength training program with submaximum or maximum loads is employed,the energy supply, recovery, and physiological function of the organs and the nueromuscular system adapts to such loading. All the physiological parameters of such a program differ fundamentally from those required for effective physiological behaviour of athletes involved in endurance dominant sports. Thus, it would be result in strength increments but would inhibit the endurance component of athletes adaption for such sports.
    A strength training program for endurance dominated sports requires a load closely matching the resistance that must be overcome while competing, relatively low muscle tension, and a high number of repetitions that approach the duration of
    the event.This trains athletes to cope with the fatigue specific to the sport and utilize simultaneous stimuli for both specific strength and endurance.Adaption to such training will be very similar to the physiological requirements of competition. Fortunately. the neuromuscular system is capable of adapting to any type of training.It will, however,adapt to whatever it is exposed to.
    Muscular endurance is best increased through a strength training program that emphasizes a high number of repetitions.
    The selected exercises and the number of repetitions have to result in the desired adaption to the physiological requirements of the sport or event.
    For endurance sports, aerobic endurance and muscular endurance have to be trained at the same time.
    sports requiring a high degree of power applied several times repeatedly need to develop the endurance component of power,this constitutes power endurance or muscular endurance of an explosive nature.
    Athletes with a high degree of power endurance will have the capacity to avoid a decrease in frequency and velocity at the end of a race or long sprint.Power endurance develops the FT fibers to resist the fatigue induced by performing many
    repetitions dynamically.The training is aimed at developing the endurance component of speed.
    Many sports require intense activity lasting between 30sec and 2min, and to often repeat such high intensity activities throughout the duration of an event.During such intense activity, athletes build up a high level of lactic acid, which shows that the lactic acid energy system is either dominant or an important componant in the overall performance of the sport or event.Such sports require very strong anaerobic power as well as very good aerobic endurance.
    Strength training must complement overall physiological demands.One of the key objectives for endurance sports is to train athletes to tolerate fatigue, so strength training should have the same goal.It must be designed so that it challenges athletes ability to tolerate a high build up of lactic aid.
    The development of muscular endurance is one of the main factors in improving performance for all sports where performance time is greater than 2 minutes.A specific strength training program has to relate to the non stop duration of activity
    for sports where aerobic endurance is either dominant or an important component of the final performance.
    The main objective for muscular endurance is to increase the ability to cope with fatigue.Athletes improve anaerobic and aerobic endurance, since muscular endurance training imploys a high number of repetitions, often more than a hundred.In the early part of a set with many repetitions, energy is provided by the anaerobic system.This produces a build up in lactic acid that creates physiological and psychological problems for the athlete as they attempt to continue activity.
    As these challenges are overcome and athletes continue to work, energy is supplied by the aerobic system.Repetitive muscular endurance training results in specific adaption that improves cardiovascular regulation and aerobic metabolism.
    Physiological adaptions promote better oxygen and energy supply and increase the removal of metabolic wastes.Repetitive muscular endurance training increases glycogen stores in both the muscles and liver.Thus, the specific benefit f muscular
    endurance training is an overall increase in physiological efficiency.
    Because muscular endurance employs such a relatively low load, the muscles improve their long term contracting capability without any evident increase in muscle fiber diameter.Only a certain number of motor units are active at one time, the others are at rest and are activated only when and where the contracting fibers become fatigued.

    So to me its clear, anaerobic and aerobic training benefit each other and such be trained. In the context of a game dog the dominant energy systems would be both the anaerobic lactic and aerobic systems. and the limiting factors to performance
    would be power endurance,muscular endurance medium and long. I dont believe anaerobic threshold training alone will prepare a dog for a potentially long contest even upto 90min mark or meet the physiological demands of the sport.
    Why dont 800m to marathon runners simply rely on anaerobic intervals? because their far too demanding on the entire system both physiologically and psychologically, and dont address the physiological requirements of the sport.
    I also find your statement that a dog wont have to go beyond 90min if trained by such methods inaccurate, unless you plan on picking up before 90min mark such training isnt going to make you kill all opponents or make then all stand the line.What happens when you meet a smart game long winded defensive dog that frustrates your own dogs every move, tiring them out and dragging them in to deep waters beyond the 90min mark? your going to game test your own animal and likely lose your dog because it wasnt prepared as best it could be.
    Finally i think aerobic conditioning is the foundation of most all types of conditioning and a benefit to any type sport for the reasons previously explained,as well an excellent way to keep a dog generally fit without losing its natural strength and power.It doesnt have to be just slow work,and can be developed in a variety of ways.
    ive read sled dogs have enormous aerobic capacity that can be quickly developed and i would imagine many game dogs arent too dissimilar.
    As for supplementation i have read bicarbonate of soda can be used as a blood buffer in high acid build up activities but not with out side effects to some, such as upset stomachs and diarrhoea, but that can be addressed by dividing up the
    dosage into smaller quantities spaced out through out the day. Also dessicated liver has been demonstrated to improve endurance in rats upto ten times natural levels in a study performed by dr b h ershoff in the 1950s and maybe of some benefit.
    to be clear , Im not a sport scientist or an expert just a laymen with an interest in better understanding conditioning so would be interested in you response.
     
  16. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    i dont think its food which fuels the burst of energy as the muscles and liver and stores would be depleted, its glucose produced
    via the cori cycle from the high levels of blood lactate and their byproducts that contributed to the fatigue. But agree game dogs
    and sled dogs share many similarities.
     
  17. Yas

    Yas Big Dog

    Thanks for being respectful when saying you disagree.
    Unfortunately I only had time to read half of what you wrote so really don't have time to reply, i'll do my best to answer what you have written at the weekend but i'm trying to sort out opening my own facility and at the same time write articles (which I get paid for).
    There are a million things that I don't know about dogs so I keep quiet and try and learn but my area of expertise is conditioning and nutrition, I train elite human athletes for a living so again thanks for being respectful.
     
  18. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    A lot of the information out there, the principles and the knowledge is based on human performance. Most of it is transferrable to the dogs. Some is not. The high fat content that works for a dog is not ideal for a human. And loading/preloading with carbs that work for human endurance athletes is not necessarily the best thing for the dogs.

    Like I said before there is not a lot of information out there for the bulldog in competition. The competitive bulldog guy must look at all the information he can find, take what applies and go from there. They must then conduct their own 'studies' (trial and error) until they find what works.

    Mr. Steven's information was top of the line back then. There was not a lot of studies for dogs, period, much less performing bulldogs. Mr. Steven's used a lot of human nutrition principles and applied them to the dogs. Lots of successes and some failures. He moved on from both.

    In time, the big dog food companies spent millions on research, some on the performance dogs, like sled dogs, greyhounds, hunting dogs, etc.etc. Still, none for the bulldog. Lots of people back then would have never dreamed of feeding a high fat content diet, or even a raw diet but times changed. Lots of research out there for the other guys that can be applied to the competing bulldog. S
     
  19. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    no problem.
     
  20. Tigerlines

    Tigerlines Banned

    i agree, but the same principles mentioned earlier to training apply to dogs if not more so, and the alteration of
    proteins carbs fats and supplements can be manipulated depending on what is being trained.
    i should point out dogs do not have type 2b fibers in the same sense as a human, in that they are not exclusively
    glycolytic, in dogs type 2dog and type 2c fibers have been identified to date along side the type 2a but the same
    approach to training as outlined earlier applies, the difference in the case of dogs is that all the fiber types have
    an aerobic component by nature and oxidise fat at a greater degree than humans. the issue for the
    game dog feeder is getting the balance of protein fat and carbohydrate correct, and this will depend on each individual
    animal and the type of activity trained.high fat and protein is always going to be the most important consideration
    because the activity has a high anaerobic and aerobic component, but carbohydrates can also be used to store energy in
    the body for high glycolytic activity,as well as used to replenish spent glycogen after exercise in the form of glucose.
    many carbohydrate foods such as porridge are high in protein fat and carbs and have been used in training
    (not exclusively)and can be beneficial in a training cycle that taxes the stored glycogen such as high intensity exercises.
    different type of fats may have different effect and be better than others, but as yas mentioned good clean fats are the
    best. glucose water is beneficial for an animal to keep his cooling and to replenish lost moister and
    energy stores, where as human sports drinks with sodium content lead to dehydration and water expulsion, contributing to
    dehydration.
    vitamin E can also be beneficial to an endurance athlete as well as vitamin C,but while supplements have a benefit they
    do not have as dramatic effect on performance as good clean first class fresh proteins fats and carbs, and good
    varied exercise.
    As you state the game dog feeder has to use trial and error to decide the best balance for each individual dog and seek
    their own truth from the information available.
     

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