am staff vs. pit bull

huh? or are you thinking the staffie bull? They are the same height as the apbt for conformation standards.

 

Good post! I agree with you!

 

I sorry but, i keep seeing that APBT were not breed for show then why? does ADBA hold Shows.? Are the APBT in the show rings AST? I don't think so An breed with a respectable Kennel Club Does shows. So the Pit bull breeders should not just be breeding for gameness but Conformation of the breed and those Breeders who do are not worthy APBT breeder ? I think one who breeds for the whole dog is the best. The APBT is a saivuor going from one feild to another instead of dieing out when bull baiting and fighting became illegal. They were breed for the show ring, Civil work ect.. I know two that are Search and Rescue Dogs and do wonderful. I am not saying the AST and The APBT are the same because with wonderful breed they are two different breed ask any AKC worker and they will tell you but, they are still both wonderful dogs and any dog can be shown or hunt if trained right. One of the best bear Dogs i ever saw was APBT and a Bloodhound mix it was a mutt but, he was wonderful. I have seen crosses between the two and seen some i would put down to be nice and others that were wonderfully breed and made great pets I would never cross breed and breed with another but it is how todays breeds were made.

 

ABK nailed it , The issue seams to be between the owners more than the dogs, game or not game--I'm not fighting my dogs so Why does game have to be so damn important? I totally respect every lat person on here, But sometimes it does seem as though the inportance of game is needed more for fighting than just being the owner of a beautiful animal that has loyalty traits above and beyond alot of other breeds. I just don't understand how you can make two different breeds of dog without first introducing a seperate breed.

 

The answer to your last question is easy. Breed along different lines for different outcomes. IMO, they are seperate breeds, although closely related. And this happens with all sorts of other dogs. The Border Collie just got recongnized by AKC in the last 10 years or so. And alread the show dogs are starting to look VERY different from the working dogs. The working dog people call the show dogs "Barbie Collies". Muzzle shorter, face broader, eyes bigger, more of a "puppy face", lusher coat. All in ten years. The same thing has been going on for 70 some odd years with Pitbulls and AmStaffs. And thats just apperance, it says nothing of working drives and the divergence there is even more pronouced.

 

I understand what your talking about. Amstaff breeders test health and such because its a tax write off at the end of the year! Its a biz!!! Breeding for gameness is one thing but breeding for anything else is a money racket. I've heard the justifications that some Amstaff breeders give for breeding and showing and it still ain't the right reason to do it. As for hog dogs APBT'S are just as good if not better catch dogs than amstaffs are. I have dogs on the yard that come from Rufus/Chinaman crosses that catch with ease!

 

If they all descend from the same stock and are the same breed then, arent our dogs really just wolves? All dogs descend from a stock of captive wolves, so in theory, a poodle is the same dog as a Mastiff, a Lab is the same as a Great Pyrennes, a APBT same as an Amstaff. They have the same ancestors somewhere, but it doesnt make them even identical after selective breeding! For a few years after the Amstaff inception, I would of bought into the theory that they were essentially the same dogs. However, with each generation, they grow apart. The generation gap is so large now that it is a new breed IMO.

Socoldsbaby-no APBT's are NOT a show breed! They are a working breed, and the only purpose of conformation shows in a working breed is to get out and meet other bulldog owners and show how conformationally correct your WORKING dogs are. Anybody breeding "APBT's" for the show ring, is not breeding APBT's at all-they are breeding first-generation Amstaffs.

 

The Reason Gameness Is Emphasized So Much Is Because Game Dogs Behave Differently From Non-game In Overall Behavior. Pit Or No Pit You Have A Different Animal Entirely. Golden Retrievers Are Fascinated By Flying Objects. Breed Them To Look Like Retrievers Without Performance Take Them Home And........you Have A Retriever Looking Animal That Will Not Only Not Retrieve.. He Will Very Likely Not Be Near As Human Friendly As Working Retrievers. You May As Well Not Have A Retriever!! Another Thing...as Slick Willie Said...amstaff Breeding Becomes A Money Racket That Follows The Fad Of The Year. Block Heads,shorter,wider, Etc.......

 

I know what your talking about. And i agree with you, in my eyes the apbt and ast are not the same for obvious reasons...not just looks alone. there are plenty of game apbts who look like am staffs or whippets or whatever, they come in many sizes and shapes...because they were bred for game and not look. I have apbts that catch with ease also. It's just hard because we have bay dogs and i just don't trust my game apbts not to jump on them rather than the hog...but with the am staffs, you don't have to worry about a dog fight going down. All in all, both apbts and ast's are good dogs, just bred for different reasons. Am staffs arn't as big as most people think they are though. in the akc shows around here, a correct male is 65 lbs and very muscled with no fat...and about 55 for the females. they arn't shorter than apbts either, not sure who said that. But ya, basically am staffs were bred for temperment, intelligence, and looks...so thats the show ring. But just like any breed these days, show dogs are running around everywhere and nothing is gonna change that. There really isn't any good registry to show your game bred apbts with, because they don't really have standards...the shows i've been to, they wern't consistant with what they liked...you can't just look at a dog and tell he's game, wheter he's barking and lounging at the dog next to him or what not....hell, even some am staffs do that if you let them, they were just trained not to. and if all the game apbt owners are so concerned about the breed, then why are there mostly am staff owners and breeders involved in stopping bsl? I love the game bred apbt more than any other breed, however i do like the am staffs, but for different reasons.

 

You're right, but I'm speaking as far as what a person is looking for when they are searching for "their breed" of dog. If you get my jist. Amstaff breeders breed out this quality while many apbt breeders keep it because it's a hunting dog.

14Rock is right about all dogs are brewed from the same beans. All dogs are decended from wolves and research shows that it does not take long AT ALL for a breed to evolve. For example, I find it incredible that a domesticated pig, I mean a pink, almost hairless, tuskless pig will evolve into a full fledged boar in only one season of living in the wild ( I learned this while watching the discovery channel about the largest boar killed) within this very short time period the pig will turn grey, grow lots of hair and tusks.

Another very cool example was a woman in England who farmed silver foxes. She farmed them for fur but thought it would be great to breed them for pets, because they are so darn cute! So she selected the most docile foxes and within only a few generations (about 3 or 4) the foxes started changing physically. One had floppy ears, one had NO tail and one was white with spots. I saw this on a program about dogs and now you can see how easily one can change a breed.

 

Boars go into a feral state within three weeks of being in the wild (they grow hair and their babies can have tusks, they, themselves will not grow tusks).

Geneticist Dmitry K. Belyaev is responsible for the silver fox experiment in Russia. It took about 15-20 generations to produce a high percentage of human friendly animals, the "domesticated elite" they were called. But yes, changes in form occurred very quickly (big, small, floppy ears, different colors and so on).

 

That was probably a different experiment because I saw that particular special a few times and it was not a scientist in Russia. It was a woman on a farm ( I'm almost posative it was England) who was not researching anything. Perhaps she sparked quite an interest and so the scientist actually conducted a true experiment on the issue.

Either way, it's clear that it doesn't take much to alter an animal's physical appearance
.

 

No pun intended! I know about the BSL and the lack of fighting it is a concern. I would say the reason doggers don't go there is that it draws unwanted attention to them and folks coming around if word leaks that they have gamebred dogs! You hafta to feel the pain from all sides I guess and deal with things as they come along man. Well, if we say were going to stop driving fords because they are going to outlaw them in the next year. Now we will drive other cars that just look like them. Folks would take off the name and put a new name to it and go on. Others would say! Hey ain't that a ford? Why No! Its a Chevyotavette that I built myself from different cars! Point is! This will always be an issue and Showbie's and doggers ain't going to see I to I on. We need to call it what it is. If it's a show dog then thats it. If it's a gamedog call it a gamedog not an APBT because they are showing more in the circle than in the boxcar!

 

very simple am staffs r pits that have had the gameness bred out of them for show use and they were the same bred a long long time ago

 

bump..

good thread

 

agreed^

 

I remember reading in a Carl Semantic book that he mentioned may be a nice show winner confirmation AmStaff and very Game APBT.s could be mixed in once in a wile with structure improvements. for APBT dogs

 

well i hate to break the news to ya man, but the world of fighting dogs is a terrible book. i own it, read it once, and put it away. APBTs dont need structure improvements, they arent bred to be pretty, and combining the two is a step backwards for both breeds

 

I haven't ever read the book but putting a show dog into your breeding program isn't going to help you unless your wanting show dogs in the future instead of game dogs.

 

I agree with you APBT's were bred to perform, but they also need structure. Everything needs to have balance. you can't put function before form and vice versa.