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Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Mr Mark, Sep 3, 2008.

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  1. GSDbulldog

    GSDbulldog CH Dog

    And Olivia, keep in mind that dog aggression is not unique to the APBT. So, if you feel it necessary to "breed out" a trait that you find undesirable, how do you feel about the future of other breeds known for displaying aggression towards other animals?

    Not to mention your average "dog man" is very critical of keeping his dogs on his yard. If others did the same, we wouldn't be in the mess we are today.
  2. KuttersKru

    KuttersKru Top Dog

    It's early an I'm real lazy right now, so I'm just gonna break this reply down into sections by number

    1. As I said before, you are entitled to your opinions, but at the same time yes, your entire post was demonizing whether you'd like to admit it or not. I'd like to also point out that I myself would never match dogs but legal is legal and illegal is illegal and that's the way the cookie crumbles. Morality and ethics are also subjective from person to person. And YES, morality has and does influence government law and every law made in a book isn't right. By your own logic, a law passed to ban a breed would be just dandy and fine since the government of that county, state, province or country said that is was wrong for the dog to exist.

    2. CKCS and Pugs are lovely, but we're talking about working dogs here and you're nitpicking. Since my knowledge in that area is pretty extensive let's run off some working breeds shall we?
    Daschunds, Cairns, Jack Russels - Going to ground to attack various burrowing mammals and remove them from their holes. Mind you they didn't ask those poor animals nicely. They bit and tore and ripped and fought them

    Salukis, Greyhounds, Lurchers- Chasing and killing fast or agile prey, often running them to terrified exhaustion in teams of two or more

    Beagles, Coonhounds, Curs, Bloodhounds- Tracking and pursuit of a terrified innocent animal, the death resulting from being treed and shot, ripped to shreds, held down by catch dogs and shot, or chased to where the hunters were and shot

    Nova Scotia Duck Tollers, Labradors, Goldens- Retrieval of avian carcasses

    Doberman- Attacking/guarding people

    Caucasian Ovcharka, Anatolian, Kazakh, Kangal- Protect livestock despite the threat of injury or death to themselves, often causing death in the process

    So killing badgers and deer are fine, but bears, cougars and foxes are a no no? Are they not also considered vermin for some areas? Do they have a right to life moreso than a rat, badger, rabbit, or groundhog? Why? It's okay for dogs to be injured while hunting? And for the record, the comparison is justified as it is the life of another animal in comparison to the life of another animal. Whether or not he is domestic is subjective in this .

    3. You were the one that brought it up. Had you not, it wouldn't have been mentioned. Huskies and Malmutes don't make national headlines because media is about what gets ratings. Noticed ya didn't say anything about the breaking/parting sticks though

    4. I never said absolutley nothing, but you are molehilling. You seem to think that they are the sole reason which isn't true. Someone sees a rap video or a movie with two dogs snarling at each other or another person and thinks it's badass, he wants one too. Guy sees another guy bragging about how big and tough his dog is, he wants one too. This is not the only dog who has been demonized in this manner, the GSD, Rott, and Doberman got it too. This is just the media's favorite scapegoat. And the rules of a dogfight depend on where it is hosted, not necessarily on older rules. You honestly think that the average wannabe dogfighter knows who Mayfield and Tudor are?

    5. Some people say there is only one way which includes another dog or a large animal, some people say there are other ways, but how game you think your dog is depends on the person in question. What someone else thinks makes his dog game might still not be enough to convince another that he isn't a cur and vice versa.

    6. My point is, that gameness does not necessarily mean that the dog is meant to fight another. And the reason for it being stopped is mainly because people breed for show more than they do for "go" or a total package dog, the downfall of any working breed. No need? Terriers are supposed to be naturally plucky, active and bold dogs. When did the need to preserve that attitude stop?

    7. If a dog you know has agression towards other dogs you...keep him away from other dogs. Dog agression is a part of the breed and he does not need other dogs to make him happy, just his people. I'm not saying that he should go nuts as soon as he sees another dog but this is a potentially dog agressive breed. If the line happens to be dog agressive so what? It isn't a breed for everyone. The APBT is not the only breed with this trait. My attitude is if you can't deal with your dog being DA, then this is a breed you needn't have and you might wanna go pick up a Lab instead of worrying about pits.

    8. There are many sources for the dog's popularity. They were on old war posters, in shows and commercials, and now music videos and movies. They are a popular choice for dogfighters today due to thier reputation of tenacity but do you honestly think that this is where all the BSL is coming from? It's from dogs biting people, not so much from biting other dogs. Also, don't beleive everything you see at the HSUS or other humaniac website. They are full o' shit people that will grab at straws and lie through their teeth to accomplish an agenda, no matter how many innocent people suffer for it. Everyone charged of dogfighting in today's day and age is not fighting dogs
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2008
  3. I think you need to re-read my comments regarding dog agressin in response to kutterskru. I clearly state that dog agression for the most part is not even the issue.
  4. KuttersKru

    KuttersKru Top Dog

    Issue or not, it was simply my opinion on dog agression in dogs, and you did say that breeding from DA for preservation of the breeds was "another story". However, that was only paragraph 7. What about the others?
  5. Oh boy....how did I miss this thread? lmao.......it must have been b/c of the title.....I find that site a waste of time and a means to be monitored.

    oliveah3158, I too consider myself an activist of sort. Obviously, i stand on the other side of the fence. I need to go through the posts and see how the debate has developed.

    For now, I will start by saying the following:

    1. Crimes against animals should not have the same punishment as crimes against humans. A person who is found guilty of dog fighting should NEVER go to jail longer than a person jailed for rape, molestation, murder, theft, etc.....the sad fact is that many times dog fighting crimes receive more jail time.

    2. There are actually two crimes being committed whenever a person gets arrested for dog fighting. One is the possible crime of fighting dogs and the other is making sons and daughters fatherless and motherless. WHICH IS THE BIGGER CRIME?

    Before anyone decided to call A/C or police, think of the kids and spouse in the house. Will you care and fulfill the void left by your sense of "morality"?

    I will now go ahead and read the posts.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2008
  6. Let me start our discussion with this post. I will later go back to the others.

    Yet, this is what is happening in the open (mind you) around the USA. People feel it "right" to call the police or A/C if they feel a dog is too thin, has scars, or is secured via chain setup. Many times people do it just because they do not like the person. This type of so-called righteous actions lead to people loosing their jobs, homes, families, and ultimately dogs. This is why we game bred dog owners HATE when we see people, no vigilantes, accusing others merely because of some pictures, posts, or hunches. Most talk about loosing dogs because of accusations but I prioritize the welfare of the humans who almost always end much worst regardless of guilt or lack thereof.

    Breed Specific Legislation started NOT because of dog matching. It started because of attacks on people. BSL has NOTHING to do with the sport of dog matching...nothing. Granted, some activists would like to inject the idea that BSL is rooted or at least influenced by dog matching...this is false. Professional dog fighting has been around for centuries but BSL emerged after aggressive dogs started attacking humans. It is a fact that the majority of game bred dogs are human friendly....in fact, excessively human friendly. The Humaniacs usually make this excessive friendliness to be due to lack of socialization and attention.

    Who says that you or the next person should impose your version of morality on to me or someone else? I strongly feel fat dogs are morally wrong. In fact, I feel strongly that many things in the USA are morally wrong. Does that give me the right to go around forcing my ethics on to others? Heck no....LIVE AND LET LIVE.

    Wrong again (in my eyes of course). The men that kept the integrity of the sport kept the integrity of the breed. You MUST understand or at least try to understand the reason behind dog matching. Unlike what is said on TV, newspapers, and radio.........its original purpose was not to recklessly see two dogs kill each other. The purpose of the sport was to test a breeding program against another......the end result, the improvement of the breed. It is no surprise that even knowledgeable nay-sayers agree that the true-to-standard APBT is the best all-around dog breed. This achievement was no thanks to the general public BUT to the dogmen who did things right. Doing things right meant good breeding, whelping, raising, feeding, and conditioning amongst other things. The match was a man bringing his life effort to represent him...to champion his program. I advocate for them because I have their work in my hands. To not advocate for them is to LOVE THE CAKE BUT HATE THE BAKER.

    The APBT does not need a "NEW" image. What should be "effectively pursued" should be the correct presentation of the breed. The breed standard does not tolerate human aggression. The breed standard DOES tolerate (and expect) animal aggression. Human and animal aggressions are different and without link. These are the things that the public should be learning.....instead, they feel a pit bull is a man-biter and aggressive to everything....these are the points used in the promotion of BSL.

    The books you referenced are narratives of what transpired. Like with many narratives, they usually are more "colorful" than reality. The word blood should not be deemed devilish.

    Wrong. Gameness is the determining factor that MAKES a true APBT. There are strong, fast, agile, smart breeds out there but NONE are GAME. This makes our breed unique. This unique trait has been used to create or improve breeds such as the Bandog,etc. No other breed is as tenacious as the APBT. The worst game dog is better than the best dog of another breed.......this says a lot.

    Therefore, the attributes in dogs from game bloodlines is what created the breed standard. If we do away from the standard we are creating a different breed. Your way of thinking has destroyed breeds such as the German Sheppard dog and Rottweilers just to name two. The general public thought they were "too" dangerous so the human aggression was bred out. In the process, they bred out what made the Rottie and GSD. If you ask fanciers of those breeds, they will tell you that the American bred dogs of these breeds are GARBAGE. We, APBT fanciers do not want our breed to become trash as well.

    I think to have replied to the quoted portion somewhere above. I will rephrase for the sake of argument.:D

    People who advocate for dogmen are planting seeds of preservation, respect, and love for the breed. This breed is NOT for MOST people. I believe at least 80% of the true fanciers believe this. The negative reputation is due thanks to those uneducated breeders (BYB) and owners. It is also thanks to the H$U$, PeTA, etc who spent their millions in advertisements, lobbying, and dissemination of misinformation.

    Dog matching is no worse than MMA.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2008
  7. :o:o:o:o:o:o:o
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2008

    WHOA! WHOA! WHOA! WHOA! You have definitely got me twisted. Where have I implied that the APBT should be ban? If I felt that way that would make me FOR BSL...which I would have thought would be evident by now....why would I even waste my time here if I didnt love pit bulls? So by saying "every law in the book isnt right," are you saying dogfighting SHOULD be legal and if it was that would be ok? How many of these dogs were purposely pitted against one another for entertainment? Hunting was needed in order to aquire me for food.Its a nice thought that we could have been strictly vegetarians but it didnt happen did it? There has never been a need for dogfighting,ever. So you are saying that if an animal is killed its the same all around? How the animal dies doesnt matter? An animal that does from being killed by a hunter dies relatively quick in comparison to match dogs that die and we all know how that goes. Unless their handler has the decency to put them out of their misery.LUCKY THEM. But of course for a lot of dogs they dont get off that easy. Almost die.We bring ya back to life, nurse ya back to health.Get back in there and do it again. ITS JUST LIKE RIDING A HORSE!!! ( AND PUH-LEASE DONT TAKE THIS OUT OF CONTEXT TOO AND TRY TO MAKE IT SOUND LIKE IM SAYING ALL MATCH DOGS DEFINITELY DIE because Im not.)I didnt mentioned parting sticks because I never brought that up to begin with. You implemented that into our conversation not me. I understand what your saying but it wasnt necessary,as I already knew this.Where did I state that dogmen are the only reason for all thats negative surrounding the breed? When DMX first came out and really put dogfighting and pit bulls in the spotlight within pop culture and the music industry.His references couldnt be more clear:

    My dogs the beginning of this bloodline of mine
    That spark this in a niggaz heart and cause him to shine

    I'd light the flame, dead game and trying to scratch

    Yo X rain on em cause after that comes the blood
    Ruff Ryders feed all they dogs wit raw blood"

    Don't touch that, uh-uh, leave it alone
    When you walk pass the dog house leave it a bone
    Dogs bite, dogs fight, dogs knife
    Scratch, shake, and hold all night

    First time I had a match and didn't scratch
    You catch just loss half you niggas, but the punk can fetch
    And I know my babygirl is gonna stretch
    Any rappin' motherfucker, male or female
    Place your bets
    You can imagine what the bloodline is like
    Since I love mine to fight
    I'm on some shit like what time tonight

    Get em girl, ha-ha, that's my baby
    I'mma put the bitch down, cause the boy got rabies
    All my pups is crazy, cause off the leash
    They can eat, stand a match for 3 hours at least
    And if the beast is in the big one
    The beast is in the little ones
    Talkin' 'bout let's hit him son

    Turnin' my back is something cats would do
    I never take flight
    Cause any breed he put's me up against
    This bitch is gonna bite

    Puttin it down, Ruff Ryders put in they work
    Snatched up the illest viscous pitbull in a skirt

    I'ma take it back to when I used to pop pistals
    Sling crystal, gamble on the block with pits out

    I'm the centerpiece, you're a Maltese.
    I'm a pit bull off his leash,
    All this peace talk can cease.

    "DMX says he's retiring after his current release, but at least he's going out on top. His prophetically titled ''Grand Champ'' opened at No. 1 on the Billboard album chart and sold 312,000 copies last week, according to SoundScan. That makes the rapper the only artist in the history of the chart to see all of his first five albums reach the top spot." http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,489799,00.html
    DMX is clearly making references to dogfighting. Now is he the ULTIMATE DOGMAN?No he's not,but he sure sounds like hes had some experience doesnt he? So take those lyrics coupled with the fact that he is one of the best selling rappers of his time and extremely popular. Now I know for a fact that you arent making the connection yet but let me help break this down for you because while I dont know you at all,Im pretty sure Im more firmiliar with the demographic DMX was aiming for. He made it cool to have a pit bull and he glorified dog fighting and the pit bulls tenacity (which is a great quality but not when paired with his lyrical content). So when did DMX learn about the game? I mean he had to have learned it from somewhere. Hes got the termanology down. Pit Bulls were siezed from his house. So who influenced him? Probably not the dogmen you idolize, but maybe he learned it from someone who learned it from a dogman or heard about it and saw how lucretive it was. If you are naive enough to think that these things are not related then let me know now and we can cut this whole thing short. Do you think no one has ever been influenced by the original men who did it? Whats your explanation then for why it has become such a macho sport and the "cool" thing to do? There must have been someone else. Ya thats it. Someone none of us know about must have spread the word damn them! It couldnt have been influenced by the LEGENDARY dogmen who you say are the reason for the pit bull being what it is. Surely not.You are making the mistake of thinking that because BSL and dogfighting are not DIRECTLY related...that they are not related at all. Its clever to put the blame soley on irresponsible owners...that would make it rather convenient but it doesnt work like that. Life immitates music and music immitates life. You are blaming BSL on owners who "want an extension of their penis", and want the tough dog (AND I TOTALLY AGREE THAT THEY ARE A HUGE PROBLEM) But my question is who gave the pit bull the tough reputation? Im not talking about people who are owning them now for protection and to look tough. Im talking pre-bad press. You say THEY ARE TENACIOUS THEY WILL PURSUE THEIR EFFORTS TO NO AVAIL THEY ARE LOYAL THERE IS NO DOG MORE GAME ...but then you wonder how all these people figured this breed out and exploited them. You cant see that connection? Pictures of dogmen with their match dogs,the rules of the game and books and magazines and articles on training and conditioning for a match....AND still you refuse to believe they have anything to do with the negative image. Somewhere there was a 16 17 yr old boy dying to belong or trying to secure his reputation as someone cool and not to be fucked with, who listened to DMX's lyrics and said "Hmmm.Whats that about?". Then he researched and became MORE curious and then he found out about the money involved and thats when the wheels really started turning."I could do this". Thats street fighting. There are no two ways about it. Dogmen produced the dogs, they cultivated the sport, the sport spread like anything involving fast money,people started talking, reputations were made, dogfighting was mentioned and immitated in the music industry, people got a hold of these dogs that shouldnt have had them but because of their reputation as the tenacious never quit loyal dog (who wouldnt like the sound of that?) they became VERY popular, and THAT is why we have BSL. Its all connected whether you admit it or not. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out...but then again I've probably met more people that are influenced by hip hop music than you have so Im not surprised as to your naivete.
    Breeds that HAPPEN to be dog agressive is not the same as dogs being BRED FOR agression.
    Im not sure why the HSUS keeps being brought up? I dont think I've quoted them more than once. And Im not a humaniac so thats not an issue. And Im not sure what makes you think more people accused of dogfighting are innocent than guilty? Do we have any statistics on this? Am I missing something. It sounds to me like you're pretty unaware of the dogfighting problems in urban locations and inner cities.
  9. ok not sure what u mean...but ok.
  10. If dog matching was legal, dogs and their owners/handlers would be able to improve the breed faster and with [MUCH] better care toward the canine athletes. The fight is NOT intended to be to the death. The Modified Cajun Rules are in place to protect the dogs.

    Your notion that most dogs pitted die in the pit is bogus.

    Purposely? All of them I hope. For entertainment? I am sure the audience thought so. On the other side of the token, the men within the pitted area thought it was very serious business.

    Your sentence of hunting to acquire food...hmm, is that you justifying intentional animal deaths for the primitive human crave for bloody meat? lol There are perfect substitutions for meats' nutritional value. If we are so "civilized" should we not look to stop consumption of meats? Lol, i will stick to my fillet mignon.....

    Need? The animals that our human civilization has BRED [created]throughout time were NOT out of need but out of WANTing.......we wanted to make things easier for ourselves....poof...we made animals just for that......we wanted to have pets......poof.....we made animals just for that.......we wanted animals to fit and behaved well in purses......poof......we made animals just for that. Animals such as dogs, cats, cows, some horse breeds, etc never existed in the wild. Their genetics was modified by humans through unnatural selection.

    Of course how an animal dies does matters! Gentleman and ladies in the sport do not only show mutual respect but also respect their canine athletes which represent their breeding program.

    First, if you are not a hunter or have had experience with hunting, how can you generalize how quickly a hunted animal does?

    In regards to to how match dogs die.....what do you mean by "we all know how that goes"? Are you thinking hangings, burnings, body slams.....what else does the Media say....? lol

    First of all, I am not sure it this was intended for me or not.....but i will continue.

    DMX is an "artist" looking to stay in line with what is going on "in the streets". His "ways" are not in line with the sport is about. He speaks filth for the entertainment of his fans. People in NYC, Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens, Long Island, Staten Island, Yonkers, Mount Vernon, and New Rochelle (just to mention his demographics) had game dogs waaaaaaay before he could walk.

    I really hope you were not saying I lack knowledge of the demographics....I was raised and live in it!!! That does not mean I am a product of "my environment"....lol, sorry i digressed.

    Hehehehehe.....I am sure MANY members in this forum alone have the "terminology" down and have NEVER seen a pit [box] or a proven game dog. Given a computer......you can learn anything.

    Yes, i heard they got the ones in AZ. They were in poor condition....indication that he does not know the basics of animal care....not to mention caring for a canine ATHLETE.

    Lucrative? You make waaay more money snitching on suspected dogmen or creating and running an "Animal Rights" organization.

    Most honest dogmen are in middle income families. The heritage handed down is more important than money. Big differences between the street mentality and the professional-minded dogmen.

    What things BSL and dog fighting? no. Dogs have been fought in urban and rural communities for more than 100 years. BSL began to show its ugly face after dog attacks. If you follow individual proposals for BSL....They started from a dog attack on a person. England has a total ban on the breed. Do some investigation if you do not already how it started.....poor little kid.

    Sure I believe people have been influenced by the original men who did it! Count me as one of them.:eek::D

    Like I stated before, this breed is not for most people. The injection of words "macho" and "cool" are thanks to the Media and humaniac organizations. You do not see these thuggish individuals going around saying, "Yeah mang, I am cool and macho with this pit bull". You will also never a man saying that his pit bull is the extension of his penis. While you say you are neither a humaniac or a sympathizer, you continue to provide us with their "terminology" and lingo.

    BSL not being directly related to dog fighting can easily be confirmed by you following the news. All BSL starts because a loose dog bit a person or someone's pooch. This is not an opinion. It is a fact that you can easily verify and be done with this part of the argument.

    continues below.......
  11. Continues from above.....:D

    It is not clever...it is correct to blame only irresponsible owners. The right thing to do is to only blame those who have wrongly affected society. Looking for "indicators" [dog fighting signs] of something that "might" happen [dog fighting] only encourages subjectivity and biased assessments.

    First, most of these thuggish street fighters do not have our dogs. They might have so-called pit bulls but not true-to-standard. After all, they cannot breed to standard without understanding what the standard entails. In other words, those pit bulls are a result of random breeding. In addition, they rarely have a verifiable lineage or pedigree registered.

    Who gave pit bulls the tough reputation? Well, like I said, the sport has been in existence in the USA for over 150 years....if the pit bull has not has a "tough reputation" since then, why think it is due to it now?

    I absolutely do not see how the pictures, rules, books, magazines, and articles give it a bad image.

    If you read and see all that you have mentioned, you would see and read the respect and care these dogs deserve. There is a proper way of doing things....the street kids are not doing them. Yet, even the street kids are not solely to blame for the attacks on people and pets that begin BSL in those areas. The Media no longer provide unbiased news.

    Don't blame the breed for the lack of parental care. Video games, books, magazines, and articles are not to be blamed for the neglect and lack of guidance.

    I live in the Mecca of hip hop. Admitting it or not does not make ideas into facts. I plea you research specific BSL movements around the country and find their genesis. It is always because of attacks on people or pets. You should also understand that it was not popularity of the breed that brought about BSL. Two huge misconceptions. Do hip hop folk have pit bulls? heck yeah. Do they have true-to-standard dogs? Very likely not.

    Animal aggression is part of the breed standard. In breeds, everything should be expected. Nothing should "happen to be". Temperament and health should be in line with the breed standard.

    The H$U$ is brought up because of your usage of the same misinformation.

    Also, the justice system of the usa says that a person is deemed innocent until proven guilty. Unless a person is found guilty in a court of justice, i will assume him or her innocent.

    I live in an "inner city". I walk my dogs on these streets and get stopped every day by either young men asking me if i have some for sale, admirers of the breed, or cops asking for my dog's paperwork. I also come across the street fighters that ask me to help start their PUP with one of mine...or other sh!t like that.

    I do not assume nor read things that happen in the inner city.....

    Phew.....that was a long one.
  12. masta of game

    masta of game Banned

    tell me about it.. i get that $hit too sometimes its annoying... i was walking a dog today and guys stopped me and asked me about the dog and i told them how the dog was bred, so they asked me if i can roll the dog with their German Sheppard :rolleyes:.. i said u guys are nuts , and just walked off.
  13. LOOK....my comment was not even addressing you. I was responding to KuttersKru's comment but now that you have dismantled my arguement, rearranged everything and taken most things out of context I guess to that I say with a sigh, "whatever".Im not gonna keep saying the same things over and over again because it comes down to this.....either you agree with dogfighting or you dont. If you think its wrong now then you agree it was wrong then. And if you dont then you are obviously FOR dogfighting.

    Now what I think is going to be interesting is how many owners who were upset about being "slandered" and "accused of dogfighting" will inevidably come to your defense and back up everything you are saying in support of the dogfighting issue. You people need to figure out what side of the fence you are on. If you want to make irrational comparisons and try to pretend you dont understand what the issue is...or if you just genuinely cant make the connection and see the domino affect dogmen and the sport have had on this breed then thats fine.

    I know you say that dogfighting has been around for centuries and DMX is simply appealing to his audience, but Im pretty sure hes been involved in dogfighting. Unless you have spoken with him personally and know something I dont. And I cant think of anyone who really put dogfighting in the spotlight in the late 90s through his music like DMX has. But those are facts you can deny as well.

    But like I said Ive stated my position and whether you agree or not, well thats a bit of a personal problem isnt it. I have not once gone to authorities or animal organizations and accused anyone of something they did not do. Actually Ive never gone to authorities period even if I may have known for a fact because you know what? Thats your business. But its my business to say whatever Id like on dogfighting.

    I dont think I have spit facts at anyone. I dont need facts to state my opinion. I mean, I couldnt get facts anyways. Since the case seems to be that NO ANIMAL RESCUE ORGANIZATION SEEMS TO HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OR EXPERIENCE DEALING WITH DOGFIGHTING AND THEY ARE ALL FULL OF SHIT. You people just basically sound pissed off because you cant do what you'd like with these dogs without worrying about getting caught. YOU PEOPLE means those that the statement applies to...not everyone.

    Im not interested in who has "real" or "true to standard" pit bulls. That really has nothing to do with the issue. A pit bull doesnt have to come from a breeder or a strong bloodline of game-bred dogs to be a pit bull. You may think so but I dont. If its a pit bull its a pit bull. Not a pit mix or a dog that sort of looks like a pit, but an APBT. Whether a rapper who's music influences thousands has a TRUE pit bull or not doesnt matter. If it is any kind of pit bull then thats just what it is. And those dogs are as much apart of the pit bull population as any game-bred pit bull. I mean at one point werent they all game-bred? They all have the same roots. But I understand your dogs are the best and yada yada. Its all about status right? Whos dogs are the best?

    If you want to continue to breed pit bulls and bring more into the world with no regard for the ones that are dying in shelters with no homes then by all means DO YOU. But Ive learned from this experience that there are obviously two kinds of pit bull advocates: Those who breed MORE pit bulls and care about the "pureness" of the original game dog and being put down in the pages of the pit bull's history books and there are those who are concerned about abused pit bulls and dogs that are going to waste at the hands of ignorance.

    You're sadly mistaken if you think Im out here running the streets peeping through fences at dog yards trying to see who is trouble and who's not. Im not a humaniac and I cant think of a term that is more annoying because frankly, the fact that someone who is genuinely concerned about dogs wellfare, not just their own dogs, is considered a "humaniac", is total, complete and utter bullshit. You dont know me from a whole in the wall and reading things Ive written 2 or 3 years ago doesnt mean you fully grasp my argument and my position.Ive learned quite a bit over the years and am bound to only continue to learn but Ill never be for dogfighting or support dogmen or feel as though the dogfighting issue is "blown out of proportion".

    What the HSUS does to innocent fools who somehow get caught in the mix...is not my problem. You wanna breed alot of pit bulls? Better be on point...cuz if you're not it will cost you. Thats just how it goes. Im glad you have all your facts and feel as though you are qualified to project your views onto others, but to be honest,I see a whole lot of text but you're not saying much of anything that has not been said before. The way you choose to use these dogs and what you believe is right and wrong doesnt have diddly to do with me. Im here because I was invited and Im not pushing any of my values or views on to people. Im just having a discussion. So while you think you've got me pegged...you dont. Yes I have spoken with dogmen a time or two and they say all the same things...which basically add up to "I cant do what I want to do legally and its all PETA'S/HSUS' fault! Damn those stupid pit bull owners!"

    I have yet to reference a single source or use any facts in this particular thread. I havent felt compelled to do that since frankly, I cant see it helping establish my postion, as Im sure that will be rejected also.

    I LOVE PIT BULLS. And if you think for one second you are going to run me out of here by calling me a "poor little kid" then think twice because first of all: Just because Im not OLD or OLDER does not make me a child. Its legal for me to do anything you can do. Vote. Drink. See R rated movies....so get over the fact that Im younger than you (THAT GOES FOR ANYONE WHO'S MADE SIMILAR COMMENTS). And if Im this concerned now you can be damn sure that by the time I am your age...Ill be good on this topic. So dont even worry about that. But for right now, Im just stating my position.

    So if you like dogfighting and think its harmless or needed to "preserve the breed" or whatever other excuses you make to deny the fact that you like it and just think its a rush.....then dont bother because its doesnt matter why you favor dogfighting....if you favor it thats all there is to it. Dont waste your time trying to make a point for it because Ill never find any excuse acceptable for why we feel ok about risking our dogs lives for something totally unneeded. If you are saying dogfighting needs to continue in order for the breed to continue, then thats heartbreaking to me that you see it that way. Who says that to own a pit bull and to be a responsible pit bull owner you have to use your dogs for their original purpose and breed them to retain breed characteristics? I dont. And I know plenty of people who still think their dogs are wonderful even though they have never seen their dog fight for them. Im not any less qualified to own a pit bull than you are just because I value their personalities over what they can do. Not everyone who owns a pure bred dog is interested in preserving the breed or using them for their original purposes. Pit Bull owners can weight pull and thats a great demonstration of the pit bulls tenacity. They can perform agility with their dogs. They can also train their pit bulls to be service dogs. CHLOE THE PIT BULL is an awesome example of an owner and a pit bull projecting positivity for the breed. But she doesnt come from any game bloodlines. So dont tell me that dogfighting is needed because its not. It never has been. It started for entertainment and was cultivated in the interest of fame and money.

    If a dogman is only making middle-income and has a family I guess my question would be why are you fighting dogs? Get a real job and take care of you and yours without putting dogs lives on the line for no reason. And for single men and women who dont have families to raise it is lucretive just as drug dealing is lucretive but if you are unclear of where I stand on anything, you can be sure of this THE ENDS DONT JUSTIFY THE MEANS. And ends doesnt mean just money it means fame and reputation and stronger bloodlines....none of these things are an acceptable reason for why we put a dog in a box and let him try to kill another dog; whether he lives through it or not.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2008
  14. coolhandjean

    coolhandjean CH Dog

    Oliveah, may I ask that you use some paragraphs? I find it very hard to read something that long when it is all bunched up like that. My eyes aren't the best. Thanks, a head of time.
  15. I apologize about my poor formatting coolhandjean. I tend to start typing and then they say I have too much so I have to try to squeeze it all in together! Ill try to do better.;)

  16. So you are saying that certain dogs arent valid and you dont regard them as part of the breed because they aren't "true to standard"? A Rhodesian Ridgeback is still a Ridgeback even though having a lot of white is not considered the true "standard". So you obviously just disregard any dog that doesnt come from a breeder and/or has no record of lineage. I wonder how rescue owners would feel about that?

    There is a proper way to fight your dog?
    This needs to stop. You are trying to pit me against all these pit bull owners by implying that Im against the breed. And you are not the only person to do this. I am not blaming the breed. Just because my views are different than yours does not mean Im against the breed.
    So you are unaware of how many BYB we now have in the business of breeding pit bulls? And I am not talking about Bullies, I am talking about APBT BYB. If you havent noticed the number of breeders is staggering. And again with the TRUE TO STANDARD excuses. It does not matter. So no irrespnsible owners have "TTS" pit bulls? Why is that? Because they dont cost a thousand dollars?

    Which "mis-information" is that? Please tell me where Im off?

    So unless the sport continues and is legalized the breed is doomed? You are saying we essentially need dogfighting in our society?

    So can you name any other dog breeds bred to kill one another for entertainment? Besides the Japenese Tosa?

    Its nice that they all respect each other so much, but it really doesnt change what they are doing. Just because you plan on doing everything you can to save your dogs does not make it right to fight them in the first place. If you didnt fight them they wouldnt have to be saved. DUH.

    Well my grandfather hunted all of my life plus years before. Hunting has everything to do with accuracy. The idea is to shoot the animal and for it to die as quickly as possible. Even animals wounded that dont die instantly are put out of their misery as quickly as the hunter can get to them. Hunters go into it thinking "Ok Im gonna hit it right on the mark and hopefully Ill only have to do it once." Dogfighting is brutal and total savagery. These dogs suffer serious injuries collapsed lungs blood loss shock dehydration in some cases. I mean since you seem to know the sport why dont you tell me how game dogs die in the box when it happens? Im not sure why you feel as though what I know is all media hype? I have own two full length dogfighting documentaries and regardless of what organizations produced them, the video footage is undeniable. And I am not talking about street fighting...about dogs that are executed but that happens also. Im talking about traditional dogfighting.

    So you think Earl Simmons (DMX) learned about dogfighting from the Internet? Something tells me he never had that privilige of owning a computer. But this statement does support my theory that YES you can learn anything on the internet including how to raise and breed dogs for fighting.

    Athlete? Thats a nice term for a match dog. However, its ridiculous to compare dogs used for fighting to athletes and dogfighting to boxing or UFC. Dogs a ripping each other apart. Muzzles have been torn off. Eyes torn out of sockets, extreme blood loss. Havent seen us sponsoring any sports where humans get in a ring and try to cut each other up with knives and box cutters. not to mention the fact that these dogs didnt have a say in what they would be brought into this world and raised and trained to do. You say they are in the box because they want to be but the entire process is manipulated right down to the breeding for agressive qualities.

    So they dont do it for the money? So they are just twisted then? Thats even worse. And dont kid yourself...they do it for the fame and the achievment of producing game bloodlines. But we can call it heritage.

    So dogmen develop the ultimate fighting dog. That dog becomes very desirable for its reputation of never quitting and extreme loyalty and thus fall at the hands of ignorance and they are not in any way related? You obviously have a seeing problem because I never said that BSL is directly related to dogfighting but it is related indirectly and its okay if you cant see how but its rather obvious to me. Stop talking to me like Im stupid. I know exactly what kind of owners are giving the breed a bad name but to say that none of them have been influenced by the breeds reputation as a fighter (thus the basis of its appeal for many) which was created by dogmen is denial.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2008
  17. BullDog143

    BullDog143 Big Dog

  18. Ok....assuming I was a complete and utter moron totally void of any ability to adequatley judge something like this.....instead of getting upset and calling a "stupid fuck"....(which...well I wont even go there)...why dont you enlighten me and open my eyes to my own ignorance? What exactly are the people in this blog talking about?:confused: Because Im dying to hear your answer.
  19. simms

    simms CH Dog

    If one's not trying to produce a better bulldog than one shouldn't be breeding APBT. Anything less is an excuse made by those that dont breed to or meet the standard.

    Cull and cull again......
  20. Riiiigggghhhhtttt. My question is produce a better bulldog for what? The topic of discussion is what? Im glad that you feel "culling" is necessary but I dont think any breeders who breed dogs for show quality are culling their dogs. Dogs that arent game enough are just mouths to feed right?
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