Debate! History of the APBT! :)

This should be fun. I have complete faith that everyone here can handle this as I've set it up as a debate.

The history of the APBT is very multi-faceted but there are two major debates about APBT evolution: are they truly a terrier cross or direct descendants from Renaissance bull baiting dogs? There are other points in this outline I'm sure some may find debateable as well. I made this outline (I'm sure some of you have seen it before more than you'd care to ) a while ago trying to come up with a little APBT history 101, so it's pretty remedial, but easy to follow. Anything in this outline and/or pertaining to APBT history will be considered ON topic, so staying OT shouldn't be a problem. Enjoy and let the debate begin!!


APBT History 101 This is a general and somewhat remedial outline of APBT history. My source at the bottom. Hope it helps answer a question or two.

APBT defined/early history/debates

• American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) - descendent of original English bull-baiting Bulldog , has historically been bred with working/performance goals in mind.

There are several types of dogs that are called "Pit Bulls."
-American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier (AST), Staffordshire Bull Terrier (SBT).
- These 3 dogs share common ancestry, but have different breeding criteria

APBT roots go back at least one hundred fifty years to England (excluding ancient bulldog history ).
-In late 18th and early 19th c."bulldogs" were bred for bull-baiting as sport, game catching, and bringing down cattle.
Historically, "Bulldog" did not mean a specific breed of dog, but rather it was applied to descendants of the ancient Mastiff- type dogs that excelled in bull-baiting.
- performance-bred working bulldogs of old resembled modern APBT's.
- todays APBT enthusiasts use "bulldog" to describe APBT's
Bull-baiting outlawed in England in 1835
- so matching two dogs against one another rose in popularity.
APBT history debate: were these pit fighting dogs a new breed of dog specially created for this pastime?
-Some (i.e.. Richard Stratton) feel APBT is basically same breed as Renaissiance bull-baiting dogs and NOT mixed with terrier, as commonly accepted. These folks feel a bull-baiter/ terrier cross is more consistent with the English Bull Terrier's history, not APBT.
-Others (Dr Carl Semencic) argue the APBT is indeed a bull-baiter/terrier cross, and did not exist in its current form during Renaissance.
Proving early breed history is difficult
- Extreme secrecy of dog breeders. Breeders feared letting rivals discover secrets of success and replicating it.
By the mid-19th century the breed has all essential characteristics of today: awesome athletic abilitiy, gameness, easy-going temperament.

APBT crosses the pond
-Immediate APBT ancestors were Irish and English pit fighting dogs imported to U. S. mid-19th century.
-In America, these dogs were used as pit fighters, catch dogs (i.e., for forcibly retrieving stray hogs and cattle) and family guardians
-Breeders producing a slightly larger, leggier dog.
-From the early part of this century, it is rare to find a specimen over 50 lbs. (with a few notable exceptions). From 1900 to 1975 or so, there was probably a very small and gradual increment in the average weight of APBTs , without any loss in performance abilities.
APBT- the name game
Throughout 19th century, these dogs were known by many names:
-"Pit Terriers", "Pit Bull Terriers", "Half and Half's", "Staffordshire Fighting Dogs", "Old Family Dogs"(the Irish name), "Yankee Terriers"(the Northern name), and "Rebel Terriers"(the Southern name), and more.
In 1898, Chauncy Bennet formed the United Kennel Club (UKC) for the sole purpose of registering "Pit Bull Terriers"
- American Kennel Club wanted nothing to do with them.
-Bennet added "American" and dropped "Pit" from the name, this didn't please everyone so later "Pit" was added back in parentheses as a compromise.
- parentheses were later removed from the name

Early stardom and the road to distinguish the "official" APBT
In 1936, "Pete the Pup" in the "Lil Rascals" and "Our Gang" familiarized a wider audience with the APBT
-During this time the APBT was liked in America.
-kids of Lil Rascals generation wanted dogs just like "Pete the Pup".
AKC now jumped in, registered the breed as "Staffordshire Terrier"
- name changed to "American Staffordshire Terrier" (AST) in 1972 ( to distinguish from its smaller English cousin: Staffordshire Bull Terrier)
In 1936, the AKC, UKC, and ADBA version of the "Pit Bull" were identical since the original AKC stock came from pit fighting dogs, which were UKC and ADBA registered.

Due to different breeding goals, American Staffordshire Terrier and American Pit Bull Terrier split in both phenotype and spirit/temperament,
- both continue to have an easy-going, friendly disposition.
-Some feel after 60 years of different breeding goals, these dogs are now different breeds, others view them as two strains of same breed (working and show).
- ASTs tend to look alike within themselves more than APBTs
- APBTs have more wide range of appearance, because historic breeding goal was for performance in contests, not looks
-Some game-bred APBTs are practically indistinguishable from typical ASTs, most APBT's are leaner, leggier, lighter on toes, have more stamina, agility, speed, and explosive power.
From WWII - early 1980s,
-there were only a devoted few who knew the breed in intimate detail. These devotees typically knew much more about their dogs' ancestry than their own--they were often able to recite pedigrees back six or eight generations. They were a small group of knowledgeable dogmen.

Where it all went wrong for the modern day APBT:
APBTs became popular with public around 1980
- people with little or no knowledge of the breed owned and bred them
- these newcomers did not respect traditional breeding goals of the old-time APBT breeders.
-they began randomly breeding dogs to mass produce puppies as profitable commodities.
- neophytes started selecting dogs for breeding for the trait of human aggressiveness.
-Ignorants were owning and producing poorly bred, human-aggressive "Pit Bulls" for a mass market.
- media began its propensity for over-simplification and sensationalization, and gave rise to the anti-"Pit Bull" hysteria we now know.
- In spite of bad breeding practices over last 15 years or so, vast majority of APBTs remain very human-friendly.
The American Canine Temperament Testing Association, which sponsors tests for temperament titles for dogs, reported that 95% of all APBTs that take the test pass, compared with a 77% passing rate for all breeds on average. The APBT's passing rate was the fourth highest of all the breeds tested.
The APBT today
Today, the APBT is still occasionally used (underground and illegally) as a fighting dog in the United States; pit matches also take place in other countries where there are no laws or where the existing laws are not enforced. However, the vast majority of APBT's--even within the kennels of breeders who breed for fighting ability--never see any action in the pit.
- they are loyal, loving, companion dogs, working dogs, and even family pets .
One activity that has really grown in popularity among APBT fanciers is weight pulling contests.
-Weight-pulls retain something of the spirit of competition of the pit fighting world, but without the blood or sorrow.
-APBTs are ideally suited for these contests, in which the refusal to quit counts for as much as brute strength.
- APBTs hold world records in several weight classes.
Another activity that the APBT is ideally suited for is agility competition,
-his athleticism and determination can be widely appreciated.
The APBT also continues his popularity as a naturally able bodied hunting dog for bear (where legal) and hog hunting.
Some APBTs have been trained and done well in Schutzhund sport
-these dogs, however, are more the exception than the rule. APBT's excel more in sport exclusive of the need for human aggression (bitework) or guardianship

More information on the history of the breed in Dr. Carl Semencic's book "The World of Fighting Dogs".

Books by Richard Stratton

SOURCE: History of APBT ​

Michael Burr​

 

If they were not in fact terrier crosses, why the name? All I have read is that they were believed to have been crossed with the now extinct White and Black and Tan Terriers. If you study the pic, you will see the pencil tail and other characteristics of the dog today. I like what some pple call the snooty or longer noses. I have also seen dogs with a more bull head which would come from the extinct bulldog. Have also read that Danes and Greyhounds were used as well as Bull Mastiffs. In my oppinion, I don't think anyone will ever really know it's true origin, but some early dogmen found the characteristics they liked and made sure that that was what was to be strived for. And that is the Great APBT that we know and love today.





Some other Pics for head reference: Hope you don't mind Marty



Snooty --------------- Blocky

More Terrier----------- More Bulldog

Now this is JMO.

 

That is VERY good, I like that. FIVE STAR rep. *****

 

I think they came from and are both, i think some lines are pure bulldog or as close as there ever was. and i also think some lines are more terrier. we have to remember that there is no was no set number of foundation stock.

 

great info maybe this will clear up all the confusion

 

Thank you and thanks RC for your input

 

Manchester terrierX brindle bulldog, Man that boy looks like his owner should have an at stud ad up right now!! I didnt think that the dogs would get the typical look in one cross. Obviously, that dog is an exception but wow.. Still pretty sweet. Dogs would have to be a blend of terrier/bulldog- otherwise, Id think they would still be more mastiff like in appearance and behavior. Terriers are always popular with poor folk, they eat rats, have great temps, but bark at intruders, so why not cross the gamest ratter with the baddest bull baiter. It would be slick to find a notebook of some of the pioneers and see just what they did, both success and failures.

 

England, Ireland and Scotland are all ancestral homes of all the great, game terriers. It is well-known how game some of the hunting terriers of today remain. There surely were many more of them "back in the day" in the British Isles. England was full of these terriers and it's just not too hard to imagine the cross occurring since bulldogs and working terriers probably lived, worked and died next to each other.

Dreamer

 

I don't think that the achieved goal was met in the first breeding, I copied the terriers standard or traits.

• HEAD–Narrow, long and level, almost flat skull, without cheek muscles, wedge-shaped, well filled up under the eyes, tapering to the nose, and not lippy.
• EYES–Small and black, set fairly close together, and oblong in shape.
• NOSE–Perfectly black.
• EARS–Cropped and standing perfectly erect.
• NECK AND SHOULDERS–The neck should be fairly long and tapering from the shoulders to the head, with sloping shoulders, the neck being free from throatiness, and slightly arched at the occiput.
• CHEST–Narrow and deep. BODY–Short and curving upwards at the loins, sprung out behind the shoulders, back slightly arched at loins, and falling again at the joining of the tail to the same height as the shoulders.
• LEGS–Perfectly straight and well under the body, moderate in bone, and of proportionate length.
• FEET–Feet nicely arched, with toes set well together, and more inclined to be round than hare-footed.
• TAIL–Moderate length, and set on where the arch of the back ends, thick where it joins the body, tapering to a point, and not carried higher than the back.
• COAT–Close, hard, short, and glossy.
• COLOUR–Pure white, coloured marking to disqualify.
• CONDITION–Flesh and muscles to be hard and firm.
• WEIGHT–From 12 lb. to 20 lb.

I think that was a well needed trait to obtain what made good breeding stack!

 

Show dogs were being purchaced from Colby, Tudor and others well before 1980's and were being used as just show dogs without keeping the gameness in said dogs. The show breeders had been folding on the game check longer than some may think. Good post anyway "LuvinBullies"

 

I will say the one who owned Bolio as an older dog has doubts of any terrier in these dogs

 

What about the dog aggression/tenacity factor. The bulldogs in the days of bull and bear baiting worked with other dogs all around. And also the muzzle. The EB of today isa complete exaggeration of the traits that were bred for in the bull baiting days, but they were bred for an upturned nose and lips so tight that sometimes the teeth were constantly exposed. The APBT has a muzzle that can bite better than the dogs of those days. The old bulldogs weren't supposed to have devestating bites, because that would just tear the bull's nose off and they would not be able to hold on. It was their grit and determination that helped them hang on to a raging bull. But when the focus shifted from bull baiting to battling another dog, a strong, destructive bite was helpful. And terriers have been battling other animals for their whole existence, badgers and what-not and they were some feisty dogs. It makes sense that they would be bred with a bulldog for the pit.

Now there's no way that it is a 50/50 make up. I'm just saying that there is some terrier in the APBT.