Fatal Flaws in Working Dogs

Nash I don't really have a problem with conformation shows either actually I think it does help to bring much needed positive attention to the breed and I respect those guys who get out with their dogs to represent the breed in that light. I think the problem is when it becomes so seriously competitive to win a trophy for looks that breeders start sacraficing performance just to suit a standard for a conformation show than it get's a bit too crazy and the dogs start to look a lot different. I think performance should always come first make the needed sacrifices to make performance the top priority than let everything else fall where it will. No dog has to be perfect physically we have seen plenty of fine game dogs who were less than prefect in conformation but still physically suited to get the job done.

 

Here you go benthere lol I had to get through my pics to find one where you can see those elbows on bogart you can see it pretty good in these pics ... He was a bit younger here but none the less the fault according to the ADBA is there lol







Another show fault that all of my dogs have is weak pasterns but I have been told by a few people who work dogs that in sports that having pasterns that are not as upright or straight can be a benefit for a working dog when he makes swift turns or lands from high jumps I don't know if it's true but it seems logical here is a picture of Bogart in action you can see how flat his feet are but it does seem to help him during swift turns and movement. Just wanted to see what you thought about that? As I see plenty of game bred dogs with crappy feet lol. Lola has duck feet or webbed feet which is also a show fault it's genetic every dog on the mans yard had it lol so not much I can do but I don't think that should be a reason not to breed or cull.

 

If we are going to consider how well a dog produces in the "Fatal Flaws in Working Dogs" thread, that would eliminate some great performance dogs from the list. Ch Charlie was a damn good dog, that did not produce anywhere near as well as his brother Jeep. Same with Zebo, and I know that will start a war lol... I'm sure that a majority of breeders would still breed to Zebo even after viewing his poor percentages in production history. There were other really good dogs that did not produce well either, but those two stand right out in my head

 

I do think that not being able to produce is probably the most fatal of all flaws as the line dies no matter how good the working dog is. I think Ch Charlies most fatal flaw was that he quit, he obtained that flaw from his sire but his brother Jeep on the other hand obtained his mothers gameness from the same breeding. I'm not trying to stir up the Jeep lovers and i myself have some jeep behind my own dogs but you did open the door for a great example, Bo passed on a fatal flaw and in doing so Charlie didn't produce as well.

Hell yeah I would breed to Zebo, hard not to roll those dice if they were right in front of you but I wouldn't expect another Zebo from the breeding (I must admit I sure as hell would be wishing for one). You have to be one hell of an ace to be remembered in history when your not seen in many pedigrees and Zebo was one of those show stoppers.

NGK

 

Yeah in a perfect world there would be no curs in pedigrees of great dogs, but I assure you, they are in every dogs pedigree somewhere.
As for Zebo, I would stick something to him too and hope for the best , but I would also be prepared to do some culling, and not sell the ones that didnt work out
As for ch Charlie, the most obvious cur was Bo, but as for Honeybunch's pedigree I'm sure there were some that quit too. Spook wasnt even looked at before being bred to Eli, but dont get me wrong, I think Spook never gets her fair share of recognition on what she produced. I sure as hell would have stuck my best dog to her!

 

Heres a decent picture of Banjo when he was a little older.

 

Why does bo get the shitty end of the stick. Yeah he quit, but if I remember correctly he went 2 hours with vindicate before packing it in and was said that he pretty much whooped everything else. It's a pretty strong assumption to think charlie got his bad genes from a dog that racked up 6w's and 1 L. He produced other gr ch ch and rom dogs besides the jeep litter.

 

Like I said, im not trying to piss off the people who love the dogs, I was just taking advantage of the example laid before me.

NGK

 

the thing that they liked to do in pre 76 was if you were going hard . no curs in the first 4 generations . but that's only if you had them that long or could trust the dogs you did'nt see . hard runners looked at everything . if you did'nt go you did'nt stay . if the hearts not there why would you breed that fatal flaw ? and i'm not talking about icepick just a question.

 

*In theory and pre 76 obviously * The fatal flaw IMHO is the "heart" and some have had success with less of that as well.. As far as "slip hocks" being the most fatal flaw you may as well take Dibo out of the gene pool then because he had them and through them. I know of a great [ch] that had slip hocks and it didn't slow him down a bit. All shapes and sizes have won and it's up to the owner to know how to compensate or get the most out of what they got. Calling the right weight and bringing in a healthy, conditioned and well cared for animal is the most important thing aside from them being a bulldog obviously. If I had to choose the most important physical structural trait I would say rear end, then loin,then depth and shape of chest, then mouth/head/bite,then front end,then neck length,then feet. I would breed to a good dog with a major fault or faults only as long as it complimented what I had or gave me what I needed. Mind you this is coming from no-one who has never done or accomplished anything noteworthy in the dog :-)

 

WAR IS ON DAMMIT!!!! LOL GNAT just did not pimp Charlie out as much as jeep and we don't pimp or peddle the CH Charlie dogs we have from that stock either.

 

My old dog Clancy had elbows like the above mentioned Redboy dogs and her front feet turned out slightly as well, she looked real bulldoggish in her stance. Her hind end was out at the stifle as well but she was a very storng dog with unlimited endurance. Her low set deep wide chest added alot of power and her underbite closed like a vise, none of these things I would consider to be fatal faults as she was functional and had the Heart and Mind that Ben spoke about earlier. We hesitated in breeding her as she didn't look like your every day performance dog but after looking at her real close we decided to give her a shot and im sure glad we did. When bred to a more struturally sound dog she tended to produce majority like the male but with thicker bone and a little more muscle, an added bonus to our already robust line as they were harder to hurt in the hunt.

I think we can learn something from WCC Rocky ROM and his son Ch BeetleJuice if we look deeper into where that trait came from and what (if anything) down from that stock still possess that trait. If their are different cousin strains down from that line one that still shows the slipped hocks and one that has bred it out and no longer shows the trait, what was done differently in the breeding programs to make their offspring different. I would also ask which of the 2 (or more) cousin strains has more heart and mind. Or have the Rocky dogs been outcrossed to the point where they are only a minority in the pedigree and was this done because of the Hock trait or for other reasons?

Food for thought.

NGK

 

Went to a ADBA show back in the 90's. Knew a 2x hunt winning hog dog that showed up and he was nice. I figured him to win his class. We had our dog Joey there and him too was being stopped taken pictures of by many. Many claimed he had the win in the bag. We just went to have fun and do something family like with the dogs. As well got to put Joey through small keep.

Joey placed 3rd IIRC. 2x hog dog did not place.

Both Joey's daughters bred to the 2x hogdog's sister got 1st and 3rd in older puppy.

One of the sisters had the bulldog build in front one had more terrier build in front. Both placed.


Irish Jerry was the judge, I asked him about my dog Joey and what he found wrong. He says, honestly I know the dog you talk of, describes him, says he in his opinion was the Best in Show but he dont get to judge off his likes and standards. He has to work off ADBA standard. He says your dog is to powerfully built for ADBA standards. I like a Bulldog but the standard favors the rangy dogs.

 

Since when do conformation and working have anything to do with eachother?
Let the judge choose who to give the nice trophy to but you choose what dogs you have to show. Don't let some judge tell you what to breed.

 

exactly...nobody knows your dogs better than you do, and what they may or may not/have or have not produced.

 

Good posts gringo and lee ...

 

Take into consideration that conformation shows are the main cause of defects in all dogs of all breeds. Man has shown time and time again he does not have the capacity to distinguish good from bad at plain sight. If you want a pretty dog you go to a dog show but if you are looking for working animals then you go to field trials. There is an enormous difference between the two even though they are said to be of the same breed.

 

I am a dog shower, yet there is a lot of truth in what gringopistolero is saying. Dog shows can't measure the drive, wind, intelligence, gameness or health of dogs. I do think that certain structural features of a dog do impact the dog's athletic ability. Yet a well-constructed dog with poor wind, no drive, bad health and subnormal intelligence could win a dog show, and that happens on a regular basis. This is further complicated by the registering associations (Like AKC, ADBA, UKC) tendency to want to set themselves apart. So UKC dogs may become beefier, and ADBA may become rangier, when the ideal is probably in between. And whether rangier or beefier, health, ability, intelligence and drive aren't necessarily being selected for.

 

a bulldog needs to durable....seen many skinny front legs snap in 30 mins. Even if they dont break that skinny hound will be left witk 3 pegs and on the bottom. Show breeders dont take their rosette winning turd eaters down south where them dogs dont just eat turds but shoulders aswell.