Muscle Physiology and Feeding the Performance/Working Dog

Thanks slim 12,

their isnt a language barrier,theirs a logic barrier,the point of your analogy is a logical fallacy.

In Mayfields keep the total duration of work is more than 2hrs,the dog is on the mill for more than 2 hours,Mayfield states more than 2hrs of work, he state what the work is to condition physiologically which demands more than 2hrs,theirs only 1 exercise and station,with no stopping,changing,or recovery needed to be deducted from the total time, unlike your 2hr max duration gym analogy and you havent explained a physiological benefit or need.

60sec sprints with 15sec recovery cant develop or peak the alactic,lactic,or aerobic systems.Flirt pole(jumps/turns) without load(weight) equal or greater than contest(body weight and double body weight minimum) cannot condition intensity,metabolism, or specificity demanded by a contest because it doesnt replicate the demands of a contest.

The aerobic system conditions recovery and metabolism,by conditioning at intensity equal or greater than contest, you prepare by work and recovery in conditioning to be able work and recover in contest whether theirs a scratch or not.

The dog on the bottom has given up position because it cannot maintain work and recovery on its feet,the same is true in human submission combat, regardless of work from the bottom.

 

Slim12,

how?

you cannot wrestle without the means to grasp and manipulate leverage,until canines evolve opposable thumbs and retractable claws they cannot grasp with anything other than the mouth.

The canine has only one method of clinch it can apply with out the mouth, the single or double arm clinch using the pasterns and forelimbs to hook control,it cannot grip or link either without opposable thumbs or retractable claws, so cannot apply a hold,work one, or condition one.

 

Blue8Bull,

what has different times and rates have to do with 11hrs of work being too much for a game dog?

Mayfield proved the opposite, science proves the opposite.

An unlimited time contest and a 1000mile endurance contest both rely on anaerobic and aerobic metabolism, great strength endurance and great aerobic endurance.

Miles and hours of work with load put in increases metabolic efficiency and flips the metabolic switch making the canine essentially fatigue proof.

 

The 11 day keep isnt to improve wrestling ability.Its to place metabolic demands on the physiology equal or greater than would be found in the contest.

Your boxing analogy is also a logical fallacy,great boxers spar with novices and inferiors all the time without picking up any bad habits,they spar with as wide an array of different shapes sizes and abilities as possible,sparring partners for champs are payed to play the role of inferior not to beat them up,novices and inferiors have the unique ability to throw the unexpected from unexpected angles with unexpected rhythm, its long since known in combat sports that a well conditioned man of great will and little skill poses the most serious threat precisely for these reasons.Your analogy only proves the point regarding specificity which contradicts your claim made in post "165",that conditioning doesnt have to match the demands of a contest, which you havent explained a physiologically need or benefit.

The idea a dead game animal bred to hold and submit will learn to cur snap or develop bad habits from 10 days of working an inferior is without foundation and without point,the conditioning isnt to develop instinct and ability, its to hone them to a physiological and psychological peak,the ancestry gives the character,temperament,instincts,ability,physiology,psychology and their expression,nurture simply hones them.The type of work must match the specific physiological metabolic demands of a contest, and what ever methodology is used has to do the same because of the law of specificity superseding all others.

You didnt say sprints will provide all the necessary conditioning and im not suggesting you did,you stated you use high intensity sprints to mimic the pace of the flurries in contest in post "159", and that your not interested in lactic tolerance, ive explained physiologically why sprints cant mimic the pace or specificity of the flurries, and why lactic tolerance and its specificity is central and vital to the process you wish to mimic.

The greatest advocate of high intensity sprints Lemm stated 2 x 20min blocks of work and recovery as the foundation of his keep,building to 6 or more which is 2hrs of work and recovery,the length of his work and recovery blocks address the metabolism and heart rate demanded in contest,by conditioning a higher heart rate in conditioning than will ever be found in the contest,and conditioning the body to use a vast a mount of fuel quickly,which is glycolysis and anaerobic and aerobic metabolism,which is the lactic and aerobic systems and lactic tolerance using 15 min intervals with a 5min recovery of high intensity sprints breaking stride to recover.

You will have to explain physiologically how 15-60sec sprints,or chain sprints ,or flirt pole work without load,intensity,volume,or duration equal or greater than contest,conditions metabolism,types of strength,specificity,or energy system capacity specific to demands of a contest,or flips the metabolic switch.Regardless of methods,individuals,and types and rates of adaption,these issues have to be addressed in conditioning for it to be specific.

 

Thanks poorfarmkennels,

I understand the points you make, were all in the same boat and want the same thing.

if you look at sprints you will see that the greatest range of motion is unloaded with the resistance overcome through a straight lever(limb) in contact with the ground,only one limb overcomes the load and resistance,rhythmically and cyclically.

In suicide sprints like the cooper 12min pulse test,the change of direction at the line produces a greater range of motion and intensity than in the run,it decelerates and accelerates speed of load and intensity,the load it applies to range of motion although increased through deceleration and acceleration in joint angle and inter and intra muscular coordination, is at a lower intensity and load than jumps or weighted resistance.

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Watch flyball,they jump and hit the flyball box with all 4 limbs,the front 2 first then push off with the 2 rear, bent to rebound faster with stored kinetic energy.

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In wrestling,their is a greater strength needed,through a greater range of motion,in all the limbs at the same time, at multiple intensities at the same time,multiple speed,multiple rhythm,non cyclic,multi directional,than sprints can produce,match or condition.

You can pull weight and jump load in any direction,any speed,any intensity,any rhythm,any range of motion,any pattern of movement and use the limbs differently at the same time.

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Tiger do you think you might post waht you consider tobe a keep , rather than just posting sports science jargon and other tihngs to show how inteligent and academic you are, ok we get it your really into all that sports science , but show us in a keep for a dog how you see it all tying toggehter from pre keep to full keep , im sure everyone is looking forward to be enlightened , by what you have for us .

 

Slim 12,

you stated their would be no 2hrs of actual work, you havent shown or demonstrated this in anything but a logical fallacy as youve done throughout thi thread repeatedly, your example of the gym with multiple stations is utterly irrelevant and Its also utterly irrelevant whether mayfield rested every 1hr.59sec or not, the canine is still operating aerobically in the recovery, and the science of canine physiology not only proves they can work for this time, greater work has major physiological benefit.


You specifically stated you would rather take the advice and experience of great conditioners over science research, you know state you dont care what Lemm or Mayfield did or didnt do, which makes you statement both contradictory hypocritical and untrue.

Unlike you ive specifically conditioned for combat and competed, you clearly never have.

You asking me to break the law and post information on combat dogs which makes you an ignorant dry snitch,the issues of conditioning arent complex and have been clearly explained to you or anyone to dispute,you taken it upon yourself to attempt to refute that which you dont understand,and post methodology you have no understanding of or any ability to explain in physiological terms which is the thread title.

I dont care what you do or what mutts you conditioned, and have no interest in telling you to do anything, where discussing physiology and feeding in the working dog and its understanding, which means science and empirical evidence whether that supports your methodology or not.

 

...t-lines...while i do agree that a lot can be learned from science,,it can not measure up to hand's on.....have you tried working a dog full out ...for 2 hour's or more....?????

 

Blue8Bull, name one field or methodology where hands on experience measures superior to science?

ive conditioned not only dogs far greater than 2hrs, ive conditioned myself for far greater than 2hrs. The 2hr mark is significant physiologically why?

 

....TL...99%...IN THIS THING ....THOSE..THAT WILL GO ANY WHERE NEAR 2hr/OR/MORE ,,MOST WILL END UP AS EAR-SUCKER'S+HANG-ON'S....WHERE AS OTHER'S WON'T GO NEAR THIS FAR...??...ME I ALL-WAY'S KNOW THE TOOL'S I WORK WITH B-FORE THE START....PS:BUT AS SAID THERE IS ALL-WAY'S A-LOT TO BE LEARNED FROM SCIENCE,,,BUT IT WILL NEVER BEAT HANDS ON,,ALL-DOH...IT CAN...HELP....YES/NO....????...THATS JUS ME....

 

You didnt answer my questions,mayfield conditioned far more than 2hrs, were his dogs ear suckers?

 

...if you try working an animal 2 hour's flat out,,they will...level them-self's,out natural,,they will not do it at the pace you want them(at the start yes) to,,,they will have to suit what they are capeiable off till they improve to their limit,,,etc/etc...

 

no doubt..................

 

...i don't belive mayfeild conditioned,, as he said on his rambles,,,cause there is no way he pushed any dog flat out for 2 hour's, with-out that dog slowing,to pace it-self and recover......??????ps: I may have missed some of your posts so will go back and read,,,???

 

No problem Blue8Bull

it isnt the pace the dogs slows to recover its the fact its working aerobically.

 

...un-less we/any of us seen dm's dog's we can't say how good or bad they were,,,,were some ear-suckers ...possible...???

 

Was pit general an ear sucker? it doesnt matter, their is no physiological reason for 2hrs of aerobic and anaerobic metabolism to turn any dog into an ear sucker or any reason or science that states such.

 

.....as for the video's ...great...i had,, and i'm sure others had dog's...that can/could run up wall's straight off a chain..(used to have one that loved to swing off tree branch's)....but there is a "big/major" difference b-tween ..."a fit dog...an...a..conditioned dog"....interesting.....mmm

 

That isnt the point of the videos or addresses the point of the videos, they show slow motion kinetic chain energy, range of motion and strength in performance greater than sprints.