Old game Bred Bull terriers

What APBT did he beat?

 

I read on Mauro's page the guy that wrote that book was a bit of a head case and used to be on the old SBT forums where he got most of his info. Not sure if true. formatting was messed up with pictures missing on the first volume of the E-book. The second version pictures are good, its the same book.

 

Is it the Pit Bull Garden you are talking about ?,,,its a lot of mad up stuff,,, the parts I know about are wrong ,,his info ,,,is way off the mark,,,

 

Y'all got me. It was a ploy to get dusty to confirm what I already thought lol. That's the one. He had some real funny stuff in there. Like Ratliff's Butkus losing to an EBT when we already know who he lost to. I assumed that dog in the book wasn't an EBT at all as he looked like a pit. And much less down fron the old bull bitch (who was a stafford mix).


The only pure EBT I know of who competed around that time was govnor. And he lost to Limey's Ch Dutch and another dog. Won twice.

 

There was a very good EBT in turkey. He beat proven apbt and was a good rough dog. Never produced though and he's dead now.

 

Never understood why someone would write a book without finding out more about the dogs, especially the Staffords where there is a lot of confusion as to the real truth.
Basically spending a lot of time on half truths and complete bull.

 

From what I gather a lot of people were simply messing with him. Specially about some of the apbt. And the part about kangals was laughable.

 

Too be honest I never read it all just parts. Why base a book on shit people have told you and not real research from valid sources. Did he have the book in print? If so must have cost a fortune to make.

 

No idea. I got it in pdf form a while back. Mostly incorrect. I saw maybe one thing I could confirm myself, but a lot was simply wrong.

 

What can you guys tell me about this bull terrier? Body build is spectacular!

 

I'd agree. Phenomenal looking bull terrier.

 

Oh that's ratchet. He's inbred on charim. Good dog. PP work.

 

I was just on a site called california catchers he has some real nice put together working bull terriers he uses and sells for boar dogs. Check it out let me know what your thoughts are.

 

Interesting thread. Love the historical uploads!

Well, where to start . . . Maybe with the claim that the APBT is the same dog as the bull-and-terrier of yore. I guess that's like saying all Americans are really English. Or Irish. The APBT evolved from the old bullies, but so did the staffy, Irish, Amstaff and - yes - even the "English" bull terrier.

There's no breed standard for the APBT because they weren't bred to a standard. They were bred mainly for one trait: gameness. Gameness doesn't mean a dog is necessarily the best fighter. Or has the hardest mouth. Or the best conformation. Or looks a certain way. There's really only one way to test gameness. And I wonder how many modern APBT's would pass that test?

The bull terrier is a show dog. It's been ruined in many respects and even as of today I am having to deal with what show breeders have done to my beloved dogs. But if the EBT is a show dog, then so is the staffie, so is the Irish, so is the Amstaff and so are many supposed APBTs that will never be proven how game they are. Because they're being bred to a standard. A certain "look".

Clearly, however, they all trace their lineage back to the same dogs of yore. So is it any wonder that a pit bull may resemble any of the above? It's no coincidence there were Colbies and Komosinskis etc that looked like EBTs. It wasn't that long ago - in the evolutionary grand scheme of things - that all the above dogs were bred for the same purpose: to fight, rat, hold, flush. They were bred primarily for gameness - and then conformation to pursue whatever endeavour their breeder had planned. And they were all bred from the same foundations.

Hinks bull terrier was a show dog - it's true. But there is evidence they were fought and continued to be fought. The hint is in the original name: white cavalier. The gentleman's fighting dog. That they ended up in the ring - much like the staffy, Irish and Amstaff - is no surprise. However, those early bull terriers were not only bred from fighting stock, they were put back to fighting stock to improve the health of the breed and expand the gene pool - hence the coloured bull terrier.

So to say the EBT is a show dog and nothing else is a little disingenuous. It's like saying the staffy, Irish or Amstaff are only show dogs. Which they are. Now. But that doesn't mean that every bull terrier to the dog has no link to its past.

In some parts of the world, like China, gameness is still being tested - in public - on a regular basis. A lot of money changes hands. We took these photos taken at a meet in Dongguan in June 2000. Have a look at the last one photo of the billboard with all the dog images. This is a dedicated pit (arena) and the pictures are of dogs that have fought. Most were imported from the US through Taiwan and Hong Kong. We lived next to a breeder. And that's how we got invited. See anything interesting about the types of dogs they use?




So. Can modern bull terriers fight? Certainly some of them can. And they have hard mouths - the only real advantage they have over the average APBT. A bull terrier can do a lot of damage in a short time. But if it doesn't win in a short time, then the average APBT usually has the stamina and gameness to finish. I deliberately use the words "some" and "average" - because there are always exceptions. But let's face it, if a dog fight goes for an hour or two - as in this fight - with both dogs doing little damage to each other (even under the type of Cajun rules they use in China), then maybe their mouths alone aren't as devastating as some would have us believe . . .

Finally, a little-know fact: does anyone know the origin of the downface in the bull terrier?

The downface - without a stop - is the strongest bone structure in nature. Look at the skull of a cat, a lion, a T-Rex, a crocodile. Look at a crab's claw. An eagle's beak. The downface in the bull terrier is a (human) attempt at creating the strongest skull in the canine world. But then, I have my own opinion on what I believe human nature has done to the breed . . .

I will not argue that an average EBT is a match for an average APBT, because they have each evolved along different lines over so many years that there really is no match (except for the exceptions). But that is no fault of the bull terrier. Because if its breeders had kept to the original ideal as those who have bread the APBT, then the bull terrier truly would be the "Gladiator of the canine world" and not the rolly-polly, beak-mouthed charicature that many have now become.

Still, I love them. They are clowns. They are smart. They are great companions. And - I like to believe - there are still a few good ones out there that would do the old gladiator proud . . .

 

Nice article but I think you're off the mark regarding the jaw power of the Bull Terrier....

 

Last pic, close-up:

 

There are bull terriers and there are bull terriers. One of the unfortunate physiological side effects of breeding for the so-called "roman nose" is that the extra bone has to come from somewhere. What has happened through selective breeding over the years is that the skull has been genetically compressed from each side to form the exaggerated bridge, resulting in the "parrot nose" where the top skull and lower jaw are now quite narrow, with no breadth or strength of jaw like bull terriers of even 20-30 years ago. There are still some old types out there and you can see, not just in profile, but front-on, where the muzzle, top-skull and jaw are much wider and squarer than the new-type downface. Most people only focus on the profile of the skull, but it is important to look at it in its entirety to see where the bone has gone.

You can also see it in the body: many modern bull terriers are now slab-sided, with narrow chests and gaits, having lost that square-chested conformation which gave them good lung capacity and ground stability from having a wider (squarer) stance.

 

See how pointy and narrow this dog's head is compared to the one below? It's like it has been compressed from each side to squeeze the bone up into the bridge, whereas the older type below as a flatter profile with more breadth of muzzle, cheek and jaw. There are worse examples than the one above.

 

Iv never seen one bull terrier that had average APBT bite,,,never mind a hard biting APBT ,,, the best Bull terrier I ever seen would not last 30 mins with any good APBT, it would have ran out of steam , or be broke up ,,,