painter type?

Your right Lisa...
Spanish, and i have to add, Scottish people.and ofcourse there dogs, most defintly settled in the southern districts of the U.S.A.
And now my tiny brain starts to wonder about this intresting descusson,its intresting to note that both dogs of the pit or baiting arena-that is Scottish and Spanish.were claimed to be some what larger then say the Irish or English dogs...
a lot of pure APBTs to this day in them southern areas are on the slightly larger side..
and its probably no coincidence that huge American Bulldogs sprang up in remote parts of them areas to be used as a hog catching dog..@Bamaman as you said.and as a gard dog..and also to be used around the farm or land for sundri tasks like killing pests like wild dogs.(Sementric suggests this in Gladiator dogs..not that i think the book is acurate.but Sementric seems to be most intrseted in this breed)

I dont think they are the original baiting dogs...i think the APBT in its pure state is the nearest thing to that,in genrel type and temperment...

I think the origen in the American Bulldog lies more in the fact that people in remote areas used what stock they had to perform the tasks requierd.

Very intresting topic Lisa.

 

I thinks it great to have an intelligent conversation, if I tried to have this conversation with the AB people I think 90% would disagree with lol solely because the AB is a man made breed in their eyes & to a certain degree it is yes! Also before I get distracted & forget the Spanish dogs also have the tan points like some of the old Wildeside dogs Pitweiler (Devil Dog) I think & Hammonds dogs. It would seem that we in North America & the UK call the Spainish dogs Mastiffs but in Spain they are called bulldogs, personally they look more bulldog to me. Smaller tighter more athletic & I’d have to look but I believe also under 100lbs. I think it was mountain man that mentioned it being rare to see the smaller type dogs when he was young, they were larger at least where he lived. I don’t know much about the Scottish dogs other then the Blue Poll honestly I think they were just a family line of dilute gamedog the family aged the dogs died out but to my knowledge no game apbt has ever bred on that colour to maintain. The Irish dogs I know a little of via Burke & Noonan.

 

David got dogs off of old Johnson for his Olde Tyme Bullies, at one time David also had a Bandogge program

 

I think the Spanish influence is way over rated we have documentation of English bulldogs being sent to Spain and the rest of Europe to impart the stubbornness they were famous for. Especially in the reformation period. But not in reverse until show bulldogs had started to appear and were not being tested anymore. I think there’s a lot of jealous people who don’t like this simple historical fact. Also if you breed for a catch dog or any type then eventually you will change the shape of the dog to fit the function. Combat bred dogs whilst similar are on the hole a lot smaller so a few out crosses to mastiff types to add mass and weight makes for a more useful dog. Imo

 

I know in regards to the Mastiffs at least, they were shipped from Spain to England then lineage was sent back to Spain. They both also traded dogs with the Italians & dogs were also sent to Portugal, France & Germany. Historically speaking it appears to be whichever country had ties to others. Anything I have read is based on dogs that were brought to the UK then bred into the original bulldogs. So it looks like I have some more reading to do Lrs!

 

Been a while but I think Levitt May have done PP work with them too could be it was just the Bandogges that did the PP. his website might still be up?

 

I believe the new age term is “ethical breeding” lol right agree however most breeders don’t practice culling any longer or it’s done improperly obviously the end result is proper but I think the knowledge behind it is not necessarily to the standard it should be in most cases.

 

Catch work with APBT is a confusing subject for folks and especially ones that never been around it.If your really into catch work thier is a selection process you have to follow.Your not going to use a totally fight crazy dog that goes for the rear end.its going to be a ear sucker or one catches on the bottom jaw.Some will be able to do both catch and still be good in the pit.I just use the ones for cAtch work that are good at it.Hogs a pain in the ass here .If I have a neighbor or friend with a hog problem and they ask for help then ill do it.I have some younger men around that love it much more than me these days .

 

This is true but in a time when mastiffs where being used for heavy work 1400-1600 from my own research but Britain seems to be one of the First Nations to see the mastiff and bulldog as different jobs. One of the most early mentions of bulldogs by name is of an Englishman in Spain (maybe Italy?) writing to his brother to send him a mastiff and 2 bulldogs so it seems the bulldog was a sporting dog and the mastiff more of a general catch dog for man or beast. But imo I do not think the ab is an old breed I do think it was created in the sixties hence why I believe American catch dog would have been a better name but it wouldn’t have sold as many pups and that was always Johnson’s aim. He added St. Bernard to his stock and they haven’t been a working breed for about two hundred years.

 

Everyone who isn’t an American bulldog breeder I’ve spoken to tells me the same that’s why I’m always sceptical about other bulldog breeds they don’t seem to be used anywhere near the same as traditional bulldogs.

 

Are these photos showing up? There are many more old pics of this -type- dog.

 

http://oweps.weebly.com/the-carr-white-english.html. this is a good read for those interested in old South bulldogs