Punnett Squares & how to use them.

This may be old to some but fresh & new to others. You may have heard an old timer or tow say that they really don't pay to much attention to dogs past the 3rd generation in a pedigree & surely not the 4th. The reason is simple. Dogs tend to take more after grandparents than parents. The % is very low @ the least if a dog isn't bred super tight that it will take after dogs in the 4th but almost surely not the 5th & beyond if not inbred tight on those dogs. All of these things can be learned about more indebt by studying the Mendalion breeding theory based on Monk Gregor Mendal concepts. Thing is , if you have been studying the pedigrees of famous dogs & breeders ,you probably have seen it used over & over without knowing it. Most bloodlines may seem mixed up to the untrained eye but most breeders have always had a method to the madness once you dissect the pedigrees in reverse. In a nutshell using the Mendal methods is that every 3rd generation or so start the process over. Let the grand kids & great grandkids be new 1st generations of the new dogs. Be it to a related or not. A family will start with 2 dogs different in some nature but blend % wise. If 2 initial dogs are related they blend quicker to common factor in both dogs. You can learn a lot more about what you do studying the Gregor Mendal methods when breeding. Breeders of all kind have used this for a long time. Here is one famous breeder with a famous dog that is easy to read & clearly shows it. The dog is Sorrells Uncle Bud. Based on Red Jerry, this dogs has almost the same % of a dog in his 4th gen as he dog in his 1st gener. Sorrells red Jerry was crossed, offspring brought back together to get Preacher who was then crossed back to females down from Red Jerry. No dog is bred parent-child or full bro/sis to get a Red Jerry dog Uncle Bud. Even after Uncle Bud the Process was restarted process again to using Uncle Bud in place of Red jerry to get Sorrells Catter & then too Hicks Money. Just another example. http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=6836
Sorrells Catter http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=110969
Hicks Money http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=115765 . All Line bred Uncle Bud , Line bred Red Jerry. Red Jerry a battle crossed dog. Line breeding battle crossed dogs & using Punnet squares to do it with.

 

Great write up Ziggy.

I love what you bring to the board, deep knowledge.

It's Mendel, btw.

 

Thanks , always mess the name it up.

 

Good one. You and I seem to be on the same page with our outlooks on some things. Good stuff ziggy

 

I'm sorry but u didn't touch on how to use a punnet square at all....? Unless I missed something huge in ur writing. Mendel was using plants with very simple phenotypes. The phenotypes linked to genotypes in these dogs are far more complex. I'm not sure usinga punnet square would help you at all unless you could target what genes are recessive and dominant in the first place.

So again, and only cuz u brought it up, how exactly are you using a punnet square? Feel free to draw a pic and post it perhaps that will cost things up... You just using dogs in ur square? Or using specific traits in ur square? Are you guessing at what is dominant and recessive?

 

I think you missed something huge Sir.
Plants were just an example of "HOW BREEDING WORKS". That's it.
Not just plant life but life itself.
The "Punnett Squares" in Gregor Mendels theory are nothing more than each generation in your dogs "4 generation, "breeders copy", pedigree.
Each square in his theory represents each generation in your dog & how these dogs are actually being combined & blended with each breeding.
The names of the dogs are irrelevant !
It's how much of what they hold in them that matters.
Does he look like his topside but act like his bottom side?
Does he look & act soley as one dog without any traits of the other?
Does he look & act like both combined? Would he be considered a hybred ?
And last does he not look or act as either one?
Genetics is genetics.
Even though the subject choice may change the concepts & results themselves won't.
Be it dogs, cows, horses, birds or fish.
I have read a few books & talked to a few people in reguards to this methods.
I still have a book that I had for over 20years named "Dog Breeding for professionals", written by Dr. Herbert Richards, isbn 0-8662-2655-9, that goes a little more into the same relationship of Gregor Mendel's theory in chapter 9 starting on page 201, & breeding dogs.
I havemore personal experiences with family members that not only bred pure bred dogs long before I was born & still own some in this day .
With Race horses.
Performance birds. I.E .Rollers & Parlors .
And even some that bred swine.
No matter what type of animal or fowl they all use similar methods & concepts.
Breeding is breeding & after 40yrs of dealing with working performance pitbulls , pretty sure that I have more than enough experience to solitify that all theories of breeding tie in with one another.
I'm retired Army & have used many of comparison of situations to unrelated subjects in order to make easy a lesson for those who have trouble with the situation being discussed so this method may be new in some eyes it's old to others.
After breeding almost 90 registered litters & a combination with the un-registered litters, there's somewhere between 130-150 litters in total I have done.
I have no doubt about how the breeding's work.
I choose only to share some experience so that others may save some time. That's all.
Even though I had chose to use Bert Sorrells dogs as the example in this one instead of my own , I have hands on dealing with just as many dogs in my family generation wise as he and most others.
The pedigrees show that.
And even though the name stops in those dogs you can see the trail back a few more generations. 13-16 generation in most dogs that we feed. All of this is to say this.
Every body that can't tell you something about these dogs don't have to be famous!.
All of this is not said in anger or as show boating, but there are a lot of people that come to us with these same questions over many & many of years & just thought we could share a little bit of this info with all.
Hope that I didn't offend you!

 

Good info

 

Good questions........especially when you touched upon the dominant recessive determination, genotypically that is. I understand ziggy, but I too would like to know how the square works in the complex situations.......something other than what is seen, phenotypically that is. Otherwise it seems as though you are breeding for "looks" or what is "seen", and that is not meant to be derogatory or viewed as a BYB statement LOL. Just curious from a scientific standpoint.

 

Exactly Louis. I know how a punnet square works. Even with all the information included, all your genes, dominant and recessive, it only gives you possibilities and probabilities. If your just inputting dogs into your punnet square or even traits... it gives you no real insight into what your dogs can produce... no more than just lookin at the traits behind the breeding and simply guessing based on what you have gotten in the past. There is simply too many variables(combinations of dominant, recessive, linked genes etc) for me to waste any time putting any thought into the use of punnet squares in my breeding program.

Just dont see its relevance to breeding performance dogs whose sum of all their parts equal what you want especially when the most important of all parts is about as elusive as it gets.

 

Once again just sharing input & adding on to discussion on "Punnett Squares & how to use them. I have enjoyed reading the input given by all. So now I would like to travel a little deeper down the rabbit whole with this one. But before we do just wanted make sure that we are all up to date so that maybe more will understand why I say what I say. Punnett Squares are merely a dog in a generation to those not understanding what it is meant by the words. Here's a link to a short video for those who may have not researched it much. [video=youtube;NWqgZUnJdAY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWqgZUnJdAY[/video] . Not only does he use the plants as examples, but he also discusses hereditary features such as ears ,nose, hair color & diseases that "people inherit ". Now how I & others use Punnett Squares with breeding is simple. This theory teaches "HOW A FAMILY OF DOGS IS CREATED". It tells how & why a dog has a given % of blood in him. At the beginning I stated that You have seen them all of the time but just don't always recognize them. I also stated that you can see them clearer by "Reverse Engineering". Today folks are more about how a dog is bred rather than how to breed the dog. When the question is asked "How is he bred?", the owner will start telling you the breeding from 1st generation -6th generation. From Parents- GGG Parents. But when dealing with "Punnett Squares & your dogs, You see them as "What bloodlines are used & How much". You then when the pedigree from 6th generation -1st generation. You read the Pedigree as in Biblical days from right -left! The Punnett squares used in the "

 

Anytime you use the Punnett Squares with you dogs , you not only seeing what dogs were used, the method on how the line was bred , & you will have more direction on how YOU should breed them. It's always best dog to best dog to get best dog ,but if you don't have a direction you can breed game dogs cold. This method also helps in taking cold dogs bred too pure & pulling out desired traits while breeding out un-desirable traits. People breed brood stock so they say or heavy inbred all kind of ways. The Mendel method shows how to then & blend inbred dogs better without loosing desired traits. Find the 1st generation of the Punnett squares Such as Alligator, & back track to get back hybred Vigor with out loosing Alligator in the process. Did they line breed 2 inside of the strain & then outcross? Did he outcross Once or twice before breeding back into original line? So & so forth. But not only are you seeing how a dog was bred, you also create you own Punnett Squares by seeing actual traits in each dog in each generation & choosing which ones based traits & generations using Mendels concepts on WHICH GENERATION IS MORE LIKELY TO HAVE NOT ONLY THE TYPE BUT THE % OF THAT TYPE THAT WILL DOMINATE THE CROSS WHEN CROSSED IN THAT DOG YOU BREED. I a dog has the look as his sire but the character of his mother than it is a 50/50 chance you get what you are looking for . Cross this dog & not only may you loose what you want but the other dog crossed to may dominate. But if he has the same look & intensity as the 1st 3 generations then he is more likely to produce desired traits . Line breed the cross for @ least 4 generations & the Hybred will dominate % of your litter. Just remember that when doing this the 1st 3 generations will look like you pedigrees 6th,5th & 4th generation. Hope this makes more since.

 

It's a concept that I have heard some breeders talk and its something alot of peddlers do, they stack a pedigree with a certain dogs name over and over again, sometimes this is not the case but for the most part it is done to sell pups. I'll use peds Ziggy posted Hicks Money & Hicks Rock Head appear in alot of the peds multiple times now when ones looks Money is two years older than his son Rock Head meaning Hicks Money was bred at 18 months old. Now hell both could world class bulldogs I don't know or they could simply be the breeder decided he liked..I'm not talking shit or downing anyone but this method is often abused to create a pretty pedigree. Yis Ole Man

 

"With each generation of dogs comes NEW genetic configurations which actually even vary in littermates themselves"

that's the key to understanding how the shit works. Over time you can see it take place if you keep your dogs.

there a vid bb post that breaks it down.

 

I start with the with dogs before going into stacking a pedigree.


1. Yes Money was 2yrs old when Johnie was born, But 2years old means "24months". Not 18months. It is common knowledge to any dogman novice or not that gestation is only 63-65 days only.
Maybe you know some kind of new math , but 18 months old is "6 months from 24 months old". I'm not aware of nor ever heard of any dog in the history of dogs that was pregnant for 6 months.
Would love to hear of one but never owned one myself.


#2. I'm pretty sure that is should be established that Ziggy " Is Not" Bert Sorrells,.
Meaning the Hicks bloodline was well established long, long "before" adding "a new dog to an already bloodline , only as an "out cross ".
Hicks Money was bred by Bert Sorrells.
The only Concern was about Hicks Money was did he pass Sorrells Family Traits in his Offspring.
Did the HICKS Cross show us what we were looking for?
But as an Old dog you should already know this.
Like said before only concerned if cross added in style to already traits .
That's why you don't see any

We had made crosses with many other families pryor to adding Sorrells blood.
We had 1st hand experiences from Cajvan back to both top/bottom side of her to the same dog. Hicks Apollo. 1/2 bro - Crutchfields Reba & her Sir Smidts Rusty Crown Royal . And Cajvan Bottom Side. Fanks Mollie on the top side of Brutus the 1st cross made.



You see the 1st Hicks Dog in Johnie's Pedigree is Hicks Apollo.
1/2 Bro- Crutchfields Reba & her Sire Smidts Rusty Crown Royal on Cajvan on the topside & Franks Mollie on the Bottom side.
We took dogs down from his 1/2 siblings to Apollo to start a line with.
The 1st Hicks dog in the line is Hicks Aqua Dream. Bred Dyers Cream Girl-Brutus.
Every thing else is just a cross until Hicks Mason. That's in Johnie Rockhead & Hicks Mad Bone.
All of these were done Long Before Adding some Sorrells to an Established line.

All of that is said to let you know we new Way more than most about the dogs we crossed.
If you look @ the 1st Hicks Dogs you'll see that Brutus Topside is down from the same Sorrells "Corvino " dogs that money was down from.



#3."EVERY BREEDER IN THE HISTORY OF THIS BREED & EVERY BREED OF ANY ANIMAL WILL DO WHAT YOU HAD SUGGESTED. STACK THE PEDIGREE WITH THE DOGS OR ANIMALS THEY LIKE.

No one cannot line breed nor in-breed anything with out using a specific animal only once.
You just can't do it. But I know what you mean though.

Not stacking a certain dog is called either an out cross or scatter breeding.
You can't line breed or inbred no other way.

#4. Last but not least.
When 1st learning about as a kid ,I was always taught that a "PRETTY PEDIGREE IS ONE THAT THE OWNER HAS NO ABSOLUTE CLUE ABOUT ANY OF THE DOGS IN THE PEDIGREE OR BREEDING THE DOG SOLEY BECAUSE OF THE PEDIGREE".

If he or she "already" has an established bloodline, then he or she "ALREADY KNOW THE DOGS ESPECIALLY" when there dogs go back just as far as the cross that they are breeding too!
Simply put the dog crossed to there line is of very little concern but the crossed are.

Even after all of that , the out crossed dog, hybred, between that 1st cross & the estableshed bloodline is being thinned out even more with each breeding & generation & the hybreds are filling up or being bred completely out..
But when the cross is crossed again to another bloodline that original cross is even less & eventually bred out completely after the 4th generation because even in the 5th generation he's only 3 +%.
Nothing of concern in the 100% Value.
That's why True Breeders don't look past the 4th generation for specific dogs but may past the 4th for "PURE Bloodlines".
Money , the dog himself, never mattered but the % of Pure Sorrells blood used in the family as a whole does.
Thanks for pointing that out so that I could cover it!

 

Once again. All breeders are different. Al breeders may like totally different things about even the same dogs. This subject is only but a small piece to the big picture in breeding your own family of dogs.
They said long ago that it takes a village to raise a child. That's not because the child parents couldn't raise the child. But that the child can learn MORE from every one than just learning from a few.
Hope this helps those starting off with dogs trying to breed there own.

 

Once again Ragedog10 thank you for point this out about Hicks Money.
Folks this is the "WHY KNOWING PUNNETT SQAURES ARE IMPORTANT!"
This is the pedigree that ragedog10 must be using as example because these are the "ONLY DOGS that Hicks Money were bred too in this family.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=378432 ,

To someone who really can't read a pedigree understanding how a dog is bred, I said that they would read from 1st generation-6th. I also said that using Punnet Squares you must read from 6th-1st.

Even though ragedog10 stated that Hicks Money http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=115765 was bred a lot , the actual fact is that he is only bred "2 times!"
That's it.
Once to Cajvan to get Johnie Rockhead http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=115766 & once to get Mothballs http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=133271 .
Even then. The 2 offsprings Mothballs was only bred twice herself.
Once to Johnie Rock head her 1/2 bro who mother was 1/2 sister to mothballs mother coco puffs to get Bulldog Bettie http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=267031 .
And once to a son of Johnie Rockhead, Cyianide, to get Joe Dirt.
And the 1st Offspring off Hicks Money , Johnie Rockhead himself was only bred 3 times. To his 1/2 sis/cuz Mothballs, His cousin Drop light & his Grand daughter/ Great Grand daughter Phase#2 to get Crossfire http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=181049 .
You see not only does Money looks like he had been bred more than he actually is.
You can clearly see that the Battle Crosses are being line bred into Hybreds to produce a Hybred Version of Money Crossfire who is actually less than 1/2 of Money blood.
Not only is he only 43% out of 100% Sorrells http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=pedigreeStatistics&dog_id=378432 , But you can see that there more bloodlines used such as Browns Alligator dogs.
Using Punnet Squares like I do, Shows you in Reverse How the dog Crossfire is actually bred.
It keeps you from looking strange talking about how a dog is bred, that actually is bred differrent then what you think.
It Shows that even though a dog "seems "to be bred many of times , that he is actually only bred 2 times.
It Also show's that a dog was bred from scratch, Phase#2 , SPECIFICALLY" , to be bred to a dog she actually comes down from.
You don't have to question as much if all will the two dogs click when bred together or how the pups will turn out & what type of styles that they have.
This is called breeding your own outcrosses .
Hicks Money Nor Johnie Rockhead , had Browns "Alligator" blood in them , which gave the Hicks /Sorrells cross more Vigor than it's original version.
Yet Crossfire looks like the hybred. More than the Hicks /Sorrells original dogs used for the initial cross.
Money or Cajvan.
Once again Thanks ragedog10 for pointing out the basics & helping us show folks how to read a pedigree correctly & why it's important in learning Punnet Squares!