B.A.R.F. proponents

For the B.A.R.F. proponents of the board, why do you feed bones? In all my research of nutrition, I have yet to find a reason for giving the dog’s bones with their meals. Maybe I’m missing something or have researched insufficiently.<O:p</O:p

 

The bones contain marrow that they need according to some research I have done. The bone itself is soft and digestible along with the nutrients in the marrow. As far as what they get specifically out of it, I'm not sure, but I'll try to see what I can find.

 

i do not feed raw but what XxkxX said is what i have also heard and read.

 

“The bones contain marrow that they need according to some research I have done.”
The marrow cavity of any bone is composed mainly of fat and bloodcomponents.Official Publication of American Feed Control Officials, 1997, page 191: Regarding bone marrow, it "...is the soft material coming from the center of large bones, such as leg bones. This material, which is predominantly fat, is separated from the bone material by mechanical separation."the minimal reward for scraping out a bit of fatty marrow hardly warrants the status of it being declared a daily requirement for a dog. Is the nutritional benefits gained from feeding “raw bones” actually from the meat, fat, and connective tissue? <O:p</O:p

“The bone itself is soft and digestible along with the nutrients in the marrow. ”
I’ve looked into the composition of a bone (hoping to find some benefits to feeding them) and this was what I found.Miller's Anatomy Of The Dog, 2nd Edition, W. B. Saunders Co., page 112:"Bone is about one third organic and two thirds inorganic material. The inorganic matrix of bone has a microcrystalline structure composed principally of calcium phosphate."I was able to get data on (bone composition) also from Orthopaedics: Principles and Appications, Samuel L. Turek, M.D., J. B. Lippincott, 1985, 2nd Edition pages 113 and 136. Which stated: 65 to 70 percent of the bone is composed of inorganic substances. Almost all of this inorganic substance [substances that have no Carbon atom present] is a compound called hydroxyapatite. The chemical composition of hydroxyapatite is (10 Calcium atoms, 6 Phosphorus atoms, 26 Oxygen atoms, and 2 Hydrogen atoms). Therefore, 65 to 70 percent of bone is a mineral compound called hydroxyapatite that is composed of nothing more than Calcium, Phosphorus, Oxygen and Hydrogen. 30 to 35% of bone is composed of organic material [substances that do have Carbon atoms present] (on a dry weight basis). Of this amount nearly 95 % is a substance called collagen. Collagen is a fibrous protein. Dog’s poorly digest it. The other one-twentieth of the 30% organic substances is Chondroitin Sulfate, Keratin sulfate, and Phospholipids.
Therefore, 30 to 35% of bone is collagen [very poorly digested by dogs and cats yet will be analyzed as protein in the pet food] with a tiny fraction of other compounds.<O:p</O:p

So I’m wondering where is all the benefits of giving the dogs “raw bones”? If 70% of bones are minerals and 30% of that is composed of poorly digested collagen, where is all the nutritional reward?Other than being a great source of Calcium and Phosphorus, there are minimal nutritional benefits obtained from feeding them to dogs. Marrow does have some nutritional value but is mainly composed of fat. So wouldn’t it be wiser to feed finely ground bones, since it would provide no risk to the dog’s digestive tract, all the while providing the same Calcium Phosphorus?

 

there is some benifit to the bone marrow and allowing a dog to chew on raw bones does seem to help clean the teeth..allthough they can also ruin teeth just as quickly..

I was told that if your dog has a sensitive stomach to grind the bones up first...since they are hard to digest and "could" cause problems like punctured intestines..

In the wild, (since many barf feeders like to comment on how wolves eat bones) the wolves also eat the hide of the animal which then inturn helps them pass undigested bone.

I guess you just have to be carefull...

 

Yes you do have to be careful when feeding bones. Thats why I feed skin and things like that when I do feed meat so I can simulate that.

This is what I know from memory from what I've read in the past....

There is something stimulating about a dog eating bones and crunching and grinding on them. Its a mental thing. I also understood that it does help keep their teeth whiter and their gums healthier. So I guess you can say its like a tooth brush. My dog's teeth are white. No tarter buildup or stained teeth.

You can also look and see that people who don't feed their dogs raw bones with their meat often get the phosphorus and calcium ratio all wrong. If you look at dog food, there is a phophorus % and a calcum %. Bones simply provide this. Thats why they are fed. Even though it may seem as though the bone doesn't provide as much nutrients as you would think, it does provide a balance for the dog's system.

I'm still looking up more information....

 

“I also understood that it does help keep their teeth whiter and their gums healthier.”
Large bone will do that which most don’t feed, and feeding a “quality” kibble also does that. It when dogs are feed cheap food that they have problem with tater.<O:p</O:p

“You can also look and see that people who don't feed their dogs raw bones with their meat often get the phosphorus and calcium ratio all wrong.”
I don’t know how you could look and see that. Most people even those feeding the B.A.R.F. diet have it wrong and don’t really even know what the ratio should be.<O:p</O:p

“If you look at dog food, there is a phophorus % and a calcum %.”
That should be one of the last things one looks at when purchasing dog food. If given in the correct amounts, which ideally Calcium would be 1.0 – 1.8% of the dry weight of the feed (I’ll let you figure out the Phosphorus). High Calcium impedes the absorption of many other nutrients like zinc and reduces digestibility. High Phosphorus has been implicated kidney disease. So is your B.A.R.F. diet giving the correct dosage?<O:p</O:p

“Even though it may seem as though the bone doesn't provide as much nutrients as you would think, it does provide a balance for the dog's system.”
How is that? The research I stated earlier was done on “large game” animal bones and not chicken bones, which provide even less for dogs being that most feed chicken wing, necks, backs, etc and they contain too much bones vs. meat. I also think there is a big difference between a canid eating a whole carcass and one eating bits of a chicken. Wolf’s unlike dogs have a mechanism that protects their internal organs when they pass bones of wild animals through their system.

 

Yeh thats true as far as the bones. But my dog doesn't eat just chicken. LOL.. those aren't the only bones that they eat, or mine eats. I can't speak for everyone else. I take my dog in for regular checkups and so far she is very healthy. I look at her soo much every day, I notice the smallest changes in her. From the way she moves when she walks, sleeps, shits, and eats. I can tell you how she feels. I monitor her body weight visually.

From what this breeder who has miniature pinschers said, if you feed a dog a variety diet, including the bones, they will be better off. Not too much of one thing or too much of another, unless they are lacking something. Then at that point a multivitamin can be used. I'm still waiting on this guy to email me back as far as why bones are important in the diet. It looks like you must be looking for a scientific purpose as to what nutritiounal value a bone has.

 

I think each dog is different..some dogs respond very well to the barf diet if the owner chooses to research and spend the time making sure they are getting the right diet. Some dogs do just as great on kibble..whos to say which one is better?? You really cant
(well..fresh food is always better than processed)

But out of curosity..without turning this into a dont feed this type of issue cause its not..
Alot of the meat we get nowadays is filled with hormones. Dont you think maybe that might have a long term effect on dogs? It has long term effects on humans.. it is ahving effects on the cattle and chickens themselves..they grow too fast and unaturally. What does all these hormones etc do to the nutrional value of the meat and bones?

(which is why free range and organic would be the best possible bet)

 

anyone else know about a RAW diet on here?

 

I'll have to agree with you on that one rocksteady. Its all about preferences. To be honest with you. I think all types of foods have their pros, and cons. So what to feed will always be a debate.

If you feed organic meat then thats cool. We have game birds and they make the best chicken dinners for my dog. lol. But other than that, I buy beef and a few other cuts from a butcher.

 

“It looks like you must be looking for a scientific purpose as to what nutritiounal value a bone has.”
No I’m not looking for that, since I all ready gave that. I’m just asking and trying to better my knowledge of canine nutrition. I figured I’d ask since there seems to be a few on the board that feeds the B.A.R.F. diet. But mostly I find that most don’t really have any knowledge of what they feed, why they feed it, and/or seem to be feeding something because someone told them it was “good” for the dogs. I personally want to know before feeding my dogs something, what I’m feeding and for what reason I’m feeding it. That is why I asked; I have yet to find a valid reason for feeding raw bones.

 

This is some more information that I have found. According to many people have done studies on the dogs, eating the bones, they say that the bones, when fed with meat, will give the dog a more balanced diet. its all about balance. To me peronsally the problem is looking at why bones are fed anyways. You think that because of some study that say bones don;t have enough of this and that and contain a % of this and that, blah blah blah. They are part of an animals diet. Whether it be wild or domesicated.

Raw meaty bones provide nutritious marrow, amino acids/protein, essential fatty acids, fiber, enzymes, antioxidants and a vast array of species-appropriate minerals and vitamins all in a usable form.

The common practice of feeding meat without bones (or bone meal) is nutritionally disastrous for dogs and cats. The correct proportion of meat to bones or bone meal is also poorly understood by many people, and their reliance on recommendations made by people who themselves don't know what they are doing makes the problem worse.

There are far too many people giving eggs and meat to their pets without providing a balance to all the phosphorus they contain. Meat contains no calcium, and lots of phosphorus; bones contain lots of calcium. Eggs contain lots of phosphorus; the shells contain calcium. That is nature's balance. If we feed meat without bones or eggs without shells, or aren't sure of the correct ratios of those things to feed, we must use something to replace them. It is a common and tragic mistake to give a diet far too high in phosphorus to cats and dogs. (This is also common in human diets in the developed world, and a virtual epidemic of bone disease is the result, particularly in women, whose requirements for calcium are both greater and more specific than for men.)

Dogs have a somewhat less specific need for certain nutrients, but felines have a very narrow range of nutritional need. In both cases, the most crucial balance is the calcium/phosphorus ratio, with accompanying levels of certain vitamins and minerals that allow the body to utilize those nutrients. If that ratio is not right, the dog and cat will leech calcium from their very bones, in a condition that can be fatal and irreversible.

maybe you can check out this site. http://www.caberfeidh.com/NaturalDiet.htm

 

If you look at dog food, there is a phophorus % and a calcum %.”
That should be one of the last things one looks at when purchasing dog food.

WHy would that be one of the last things to look at? Just because its last on the bag? Thats why a lot of people can't feed the diet, because they think something that small is insignificant.

Official Publication of American Feed Control Officials, 1997, page 191:

this was in 97. I'm sure there has got to be some newer studies out on this.



I'm not sure what else I can help you out with texasbulldogs, but from everyone I have spoken with, they say the bones need to be fed with the meat to produce the right phosphorus/calcium ratio. Without the bones, there would be no calcium to balance out the phosphorus. Therefore you get animals that get sick and die, because they didn't get fed raw bones or bone meal.

 

If thats not good enough for you, I'll keep looking until I find the answer you are looking for. But honestly other than what I was saying before there aren't that many other reasons for feeding bones. Everyone I've asked,(even the old timers) have told me the same thing over and over.

 

I have research the raw diet and the only reason I could find to feed your dog bones was for calcium.Some argue that there are trace minerals and it helps develope strong jaw muscles,but I think they have potentialto do more harm then good.I decided to go with a quality kibble mixed with ground raw meat and it seems to be working great.

 

its like feeding your dog eggs.. if you do, you should also feed the shell.

too much of one vitamin or mineral can upset the absorption of another or cause serious illness. thats why balance between all is essential. Too much protien can cause liver damage.

Its like feeding your female exra calcium during pregancy.. if over done, it could harm her. The balances are essential.

 

How often do you guys feed your dogs eggs, if at all?

 

I've been interested in the BARF diet for years but never could find a cost effective way to feed my yard of dogs..

Since there is so much talk about this can anyone post an example of what they are feeding and an approx cost, for say a month (per dog or if you have a bigger yard how many you are feeding)?

 

“According to many people have done studies on the dogs, eating the bones, they say that the bones, when fed with meat, will give the dog a more balanced diet.”
That is why I am asking the question? How does it (raw bones) provide a more balanced diet? They offer nothing nutritionally, and the Calcium Phosphorus is even questionable at best. <O:p</O:p

“ To me peronsally the problem is looking at why bones are fed anyways.”
Why is investigating and wanting to know the purpose of a ingredient in a recommended diet a “problem”?<O:p</O:p

“You think that because of some study that say bones don;t have enough of this and that and contain a % of this and that, blah blah blah. They are part of an animals diet. Whether it be wild or domesicated.”
I find it very interesting that those proponents of feeding “raw bones” have no actual knowledge and/or research of the benefits of feeding them. Everyone is always trying to compare a wild canids diet with a “pets” diet and there is no comparison.

“Raw meaty bones provide nutritious marrow, amino acids/protein, essential fatty acids, fiber, enzymes, antioxidants and a vast array of species-appropriate minerals and vitamins all in a usable form.”
That is not an accurate statement for a number of reasons. You are mentioning the nutritional benefits of a “fresh kill”. As those bones are still soft, supple, hydrated and full of nutrients. Most feed domestic farm animals as a main meal, which is not a “fresh kill”. They have been dead for days, weeks, or months. Right after death rigor mortis sets in and the bones become hard, brittle, dehydrated; the nutrients are dead and gone. All processed foods for people and animals have been cooked, sterilized, or pasteurized, which means all the enzymes that are needed to digest and utilize the food are destroyed.<O:p</O:p

“The common practice of feeding meat without bones (or bone meal) is nutritionally disastrous for dogs and cats.”
The major source of calcium for canines in the wild is the blood that is carrying the calcium to the bones of their prey and the fresh, live, hydrated bones that are full of nutrients. This source of calcium cannot be duplicated domestically by giving dead raw bones.<O:p</O:p

“ The correct proportion of meat to bones or bone meal is also poorly understood by many people, and their reliance on recommendations made by people who themselves don't know what they are doing makes the problem worse.”
That is very true.

“There are far too many people giving eggs and meat to their pets without providing a balance to all the phosphorus they contain. Meat contains no calcium, and lots of phosphorus; bones contain lots of calcium. Eggs contain lots of phosphorus; the shells contain calcium.”
I agree, there needs to be and should be a balance that most don’t feed. But everything I read states;feeding raw bones or giving other kinds of calcium such as bone meal, eggshells, calcium carbonate, calcium citrate, etc. All of these calcium products are almost impossible for the gastrointestinal system to digest, assimilate and utilize. <O:p</O:p

“Dogs have a somewhat less specific need for certain nutrients, but felines have a very narrow range of nutritional need.”
That is mainly do to the fact a feline is a true carnivore. <O:p</O:p

“WHy would that be one of the last things to look at?”
The reason I say that is because the vast majority of dog foods, B.A.R.F. diets, and canine performance supplements have an improper Calcium Phosphorus ratio. There are more important things that should be looked for when deciding on a kibble/diet for a performance dog.<O:p</O:p

“this was in 97. I'm sure there has got to be some newer studies out on this.”
That was not a genetic, medical, etc study that needs to be up to date and current. It was a bone composition study, so it is well within limits of still being considered accurate and current.