bloodline or gameness?

This is good dog talk... I think people are misunderstanding what others are saying... You don't just want a dog with 1 qaulity is what I was getting from tripleJ

 

Which way did he go! Lol

 

thats about the truth of it right there clkennels.
p.s im not apart of any fan club but my own lol. i will say if i agree with something within a post ill thank them, it dont mean i agrea with the total...
it would have been easier to find gameness in a soft bitting long winded dog than a hard bitting long winded dog for the simple reason being, two hard bitting dogs are going to inflict more bodilly damage and although they might have the drive to go futher,physically they cant. would you call gameness ?
evenlly matched dogs!!!
hard bite is for the gambler, gamness is for the preservation.......
a dog with all attributes is the essance
why do you think it was near always the hard biters that where in question?
could it have been because of the physical damage sustained that it ended too quickly to determain gameness? this is also contoversial because even if it ended quickly for both because of physical damage dont mean the dog didnt have the will to continue and this is one thing that they used to determain gameness , is it not? with this in mind, a dog wouldnt have to go 1-2 or 3 hours would it?
now a couple of soft mouth dogs, not inflicting alot of physical damage would have to go for hours and this is where something else comes into play, not only the will, but pure stamina, wind, etc through conditioning and a dog being physically well put together.
then bring in all the other factors like, did they travel far, weather or conditions of the day and the big one i think, is the mentality of the handler on the day, this has more effect on a dog than most would know/think.

 

Were'd whooo go lol.......

 

Look at it this way to simplify it.

On a given day ANY dog can quite- All will agree with this

If one wan't to Game test a dog HARD before he ever hunts thats their buisness but many think this "old" method took too much out of the young dogs. Instead, go looking for average competition for the first hunt and see how your dog does. I think this is what Cali-Jack leans toward in The Pit Bull Bible. There are alot of indicators in the way a dog behaves during his encounter that could determine wether or not he or she has what it takes. Then go from there.

A soft mouth dog with wind might be able to go for three hours, keep themselves out of trouble, and he too may be a cur!! Because he isn't taking any punishment while in a head or ear hold. Its the reaction to PAIN that gives you an idea of what kind of animal you have.

All hypothetical

 

IMO Ima a firm believer that the chosen dog is much more of an asset than the bloddline for a program . I have had differnt routes of that redboy/jocko stuff that was eye candy on paper but not worth feedin to some IMO. Nowadays , differnt strains of that rb/jocko is what is now glorified due to those particular dogs in totally differnt programs. I believe thats why selective breeding is in the eyes of the beholder. Anybody can selctive breed but the knoledge behind the choices one makes to select the few is something one can only learn from experience. There are so many considerations to be taken when choosing the few and proud. Ultimately its the said dog(s) that will be the chosen for the program

Pointblank , I believe the dog is more impt. than a bloodline thats pretty..Dont get me wwrong, The total pacjakge bulldog is needed over the pretty paper.

Cutt

 

D's I was on my Blackberry when i was reading this thread. I thought everybody had good points as a whole. Just the same in different ways of putting it. That's why i said which way did he go. lol

I do think that i would def. like a BULLDOG (game), without a doubt put my pennies on the bred dog than a scratterbred dog. It all depends on what your intentions for the dog in question. If the dog don't have bite but is game he could def do the time with a good conditioning behind him. Now if he's up against a dog that has bite with a good conditioning that leaves a fine line of how game the other really is! We all said it everytime a good dog will quite one day but the question is, is the other dog who's got bite and condition really a game dog? Only another dog with the same qualities be the real test for that dog. Conditioning or gameness, Gameness or conditioning it's like a roll of the dice. It depends on the dog and the man behind the dog at that give time.......

Ppl do play that card of picking who they go into cause they've seen the dog go and know hey my boy could bet him easy. Cause let's be real ppl I've heard of competition dodging real good competition because the other dog is a BULLDOG! With the thought of $$$$$.
Now if that's what your after then take that scratterbred game dog and have at it!:cool:

 

i see exactly what you are say'n.
what i want to say here is that for me personally i would sooner take my time, starting out with dogs in termanolagy, scatter bred. people use that turm scatter bred but to me when i refure to scatter bred( in the circle that is) i would be refuring to battle crosses, best of the best can be brought together to eventually form a strain or family. that is also to say there will always be a few dogs within the strain that go back to related ancestry somewhere. if that is not the case, they are hybrid. i think alot of people breed to close for to long and i think this does and eventually will see the demise of the gamedog with genetic flaw's and herriditory illnesses.
breeding to keep certain traits can also carry stuff you dont want.
lol... and for some reason its very difficult to keep one without the other.
do we all agree, that to use only the best to best weather that is within a strain or scattered is better than to continue on breeding relative to relative bringing along genetic fault with them. once those faults are there, then youve about f*cked it havent ya. they pop up along the way because they can hide for a generation or so and i think youll find this alot more with those that breed close, gen after gen... there is no set rule, never has, never will be, because we are all individualls and everyone is look'n for that something a bit different or our interpratations are atleast different.
the only thing that looks good to me with a line bred/inbred..dog is the paper. ill judge the dog, if i like him, then ill take a look at that paper.

 

Aaaaaah now when you say battlecross now that's a different story right there! Now as i said the factors of that game no bite dog and the game bitin dog still plays. As for it being battlecross that is def. a option which you could play the cards alittle differently on the breeding program. Best to best in two different bloods is two roads you could take with the breeding to both sides of the cross and see where your bulldog's come from. Now that battlecross becomes your out to loosen up the gene pool.:o

 

i believe in the gameness of the individual, i think you get better results when breeding game tested animal over matched animals. Most matches end in less than an hour, way before many actually get tired, so if his gameness isn't proven, then whats the point. Gameness is what seperates the super from the average, most match winners are average dogs with skill. I would take a game proven dog over a champion who's won all 3 in less than an hour. Seeing a skilled dog is great, but seeing a truely game dog is priceless.

 

unless those gametested arent producing ... results are going to vary. And thats why I like percentages.

 

No what I am sayin is just though a dog can bite like a crock dont make him game! Get a good ear sucker on the plan then you will see. What I am saying is you need the whole package not just gameness not just mouth not just wind you need the whole package. and the only way you could find out is the match. What does three dogin prove yea the were game now the are crippled up and are just brood or worse you cant bring them back now they are worm dirt. A dog that makes good rank is a worthy dog. Plain and simple Not a paper Ch but one that has done some time and proved him self. And If your dogs wouldnt go over the hr otc you need new dogs. That is what I am sayin they have to have it natrural then you can fine tune it with the keep Yea you can make a 30 min curr an Hr dog with a keep but in time he still will be a curr I dint care how good a dog man you are. You start with shit its still shit I dont care how ya dress it up.

 

thought some may be interested to read someone elses view....

The Name of the Game
By - Richard F. Stratton


As I mentioned before in an earlier article, I know that I am getting old now, because I am getting so that I sound just like the old-time dog men that used to puzzle me so much in my youth. Dogs that impressed me in my youth because of their agility or punishing power were often looked upon with a jaundiced eye by some of the old timers. I kept wondering what they knew that I didn't. Well, there were a few things, to be sure.
For one thing, they knew that it took a game dog to win. Old John P. Colby had a statement in his advertisements to the effect that it was easy enough to get good fighting dogs, but it took a game one to win. Few dog men have had the status among dog men that "J.P." did, and he knew what he was talking about. I would only modify what he said to "almost always." There are almost no absolute statements that can stand, And that is the case with Colby's statement, too.If a dog can punish hard enough, he doesn't have to be truly game to win. If he is enough dog that he can keep another dog down and kill him in short order, then he doesn't have to be game to win. Dogs like this are extremely rare, however.
Another reason that dog men liked the game dogs was that it was, more than anything else, the very essence of the Bulldog breed. It was the thing which enabled a thirty-pound Bulldog to whip an eighty-pound German Shepherd. Further, I think that it seemed like something special to Bulldog men. That is, they considered it an almost spiritual trait.
These old timers had. learned fiom long experience that it was no fun to have a dog almost
completely disable his opponent and then lose by quitting. There was something particularly galling about a dog refusing to scratch to an opponent, simply because his opponent still had fire in his eye and enthusiasm for the contest-even though he had been taking a beating for the entire time. On the other hand, there was something extra sweet about going up against a notoriously hard biting dog with one that simply could not be stopped while he was still alive and winning. Truth to tell, most of the dog men would rather have lost with a game dog than won with one which was obviously lacking in that respect. And the game dog nearly always has the crowd on his side. There is something
about attaining a win by seemingly sheer will that strikes a responsive chord, not only in dog men, but in people in general. An example of such a win occurred over a decade ago when Sorrells' Dugan, a son of Wallace's Talking Boy (also called Sorrells' Hard Rock), won over a barnstorming dog named Cannon. In the first fifteen minutes, Cannon had Dugan incapacitated in both shoulders and had him down, looking for all the world as though he was about to kill him right there in very short order. But Dugan always had a hold
some place to neutralize, to some extent, his opponent. Slowly but surely, the tide began to turn, as Dugan began to get the use of one of his front legs. Finally, the Cannon dog, exasperated at being unable to put his opponent away and at the ever-increasing turning of the tide, stood in his comer and took the count. This match took place back in the old convention days, and it had the crowd on its feet during the last part of the contest, applauding wildly, and some of them were crying unashamedly. Pete Sparks once emphasized the importance of gameness when a group was debating establishing
two trophies, one for the traditional best dog in show and one for the gamest dog in the show. Pete snorted at this idea, saying, "The gamest dog in the show is the best dog in the show." In view of the fact that it is mainly the older, experienced dog men who appreciate gameness, it obviously takes a while to truly appreciate it. Still, let's face facts. The Bulldog is superior to other breeds in areas other than gameness. That is, he is generally more athletic, has more stamina, has more biting power, etc. And gameness is not
absolute either. The gamest dog in the world can be made to quit, given the right circumstances. I think most experienced dog men believe that.
And I must admit that some old timers became a little extreme in their adherence to gameness. It was said, for example, that the Farmer Brothers would cull out a hard biting dog for the simple reason that they didn't believe that hard bite and gameness went together. It doesn't very often, but when it does, you really have something! (You can see how the Farmer Brothers attitude was another example of absolutist thinking.) Old timers suspect that all talented dogs are lacking in gameness, because no dog ever comes along to find out if the dog can take what it dishes out. Everybody felt the same way about Searcy Jeff, so Bob Wallace game tested him against four different dogs in turn, and he took it all and begged for more. We are going through an era now in which dog men are primarily interested in dogs which have bone crushing ability. One of the problems with that view is that many a finesse type dog has beaten some of those hard biters by simply holding them out and not giving them a chance to do any real damage biting. That is a dangerous game, because all it takes is one time to do real damage. And each time the
hard biter gets to the finesse fighter, he slows him down enough that it makes it easier for it to happenagain. Still, the finesse type of dogs probably win more against the hard biters than the other way around. Of course, some of the finesse dogs occasionally come with some jaw power, too. That is what is known as the full package! The truth is that it is tough to beat a dog with gameness and good air. It is my fervent hope that people will not flock to breed to those barnstormers unless they have proven their gameness, too. We would not want the Bulldog, renown for his gameness above all other animals, to lose that trait which has taken countless generations and countless centuries to establish.

 

Producing ability is whole other ball game. There are many high percentage lines with low percentage strains. Meaning, in every big name bloodline, you'll have various different strains of the blood. Example jeep blood could come from many different strains such as, werdo, tab, floyd, abbe,etc. It only takes one dog and one breeding to creat a downward spiral which can lower the percentage of any line. Just the same it could only take one dog to jumpstart a low percentage line. JMO
At the end of the day there are no guaranties no matter how you breed and no matter how high the percentage. Every line throws curs and every line can throw a monster.

 

When 1st getting into dogs you usually get a dog or two from a good source or mentor. When you start is when testing is a usefull tool. Test and cull, test and cull, test and cull.
After you have tested several generations and you are comfortable with what you have produced, then you can start to select a few to school. If they show promise and ability then you can put em in a keep and go hunting.
Dog men LIE like hell. Just like fishermen, they always have a story or two to tell. You can't go out and buy a couple dogs with a good ped or from a good line and think you will be box ready after the 1st litter drops and comes to age. To get a good thing going takes time and patience. Sometimes you might scrap what you have after testing a few breedings and start over.
Most important is don't lie to yourself or try to convince yourself that a dog is a worthy dog when it isn't. Ive seen dogs nasty as hell on a chain & showed nothing in a hunt. I seen some dogs LAZY as hell, wouldn't even bark or scratch while on the chain and did well in hunts. Just because a dog shows good signs don't mean a thing.
I guess my point is that if you get a shit dog from a good line and you test it, then the truth will come out. You know you got a dud & whats the point of continuing. Even good lines have bad dogs, it is up to you to find out what you have.

 

HBK and Triple J, I'm building a time machine so we can do research. LOL!

 

gameness is what its al about

 

Oooh yea no doubt gameness IS where it's at! One could be fooled tho if you don't have a good eye and KNOW dog's only the Old Timers pre 76 had.:cool: It's all history!

Which side of gameness is the dog on is the ?. No matter what if the dog is true it's all she wrote!