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Breeding to a steroid champ...????

Discussion in 'Breeder Discussion' started by BLUE8BULL, Jul 6, 2014.

Page 6 of 12
  1. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Make all checks payable to....just kidding.


    I think a lot of times people get so passionate about a subject they can't see the forest for the trees.


    Neither part of the subjects in the original post "steroid champs" and "breeding" have any correlation to the other.


    It is the same argument as 'performance and production'. A dog can be a performer and then a producer or he could be a producer and never performed. They can be both, one or the other or neither. But there is no correlation between the two. One is not a requirement of the other.


    S
     
    slim12, Sep 12, 2014
    #101
  2. AGK

    AGK Super duper pooper scooper Administrator

    I agree. I think far too many people worry about what the next man is doing instead of minding their own dogs. Steriods or no, a good dog is a good dog. I also very much agree with your comment about breeding to the sire who produced the steriod champ. I have always looked at it like this, its nice to breed to those titled dogs but its much better IMO to breed to the dog who created the titled dog. Everyone has their own methods to their maddness and thats what makes everything so competitive. What works for you might not work for me mentailty i suppose. The roid topic is one that seems to get posts that either strongly agree with using them or strongly dissagree with using them. Like there is no inbetween in this topic. If you have never used them its hard to have a solid opinion on the subject yet many will just flat out say id never use them. Lol its funny to watch people get so bent out of shape over someone elses opinions. :lol:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2014
    AGK, Sep 12, 2014
    #102
  3. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Too true. It is also a lot like bloodlines. If one was so much better than all the rest we would all eventually have the same line. People who have never seen a Red Boy dog already know they do not have any mouth and those same people think the Eli dogs will bite but will not stay. Funny how that works.


    Steroids the same. The opinions are very passionate. My personal opinion is that they are a non-factor in the dogs. Mostly because very few people use them. Top that off with, of the very few who use them the number of people within that group who know how to use them are even fewer. Success and failure with steroids and the dogs is a very fine line. It takes a ton of knowledge of the steroids, a ton of knowledge in the dogs and the willingness to put in a ton of work in the dog. Finding someone who meets all that criteria is very few and very far between.


    S.
     
    slim12, Sep 12, 2014
    #103
  4. Eagle

    Eagle Big Dog

    Must be weak stock if anyone needs to use steroids....which will ruin a dog later in life.
     
    Eagle, Sep 12, 2014
    #104
  5. mccoypitbulls

    mccoypitbulls Underdog

    Natural beauty is much more appealing.. But turbo blue racing fuel smells better than premium . enhancement is part of human nature it seems. Some may go that route some may not..
    .
     
    mccoypitbulls, Sep 13, 2014
    #105
  6. david63

    david63 CH Dog

    I agree with that mccoypitbull.
     
    david63, Sep 13, 2014
    #106
  7. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    It does not have to be weak stock. It is an enhancement. When used correctly with adequate knowledge they work beautifully. If it is weak stock it will be better, if it is better stock it will be even better.


    Can it damage a dog later in life? It can. Especially when administered incorrectly or over used. Like any other medication I suppose.


    Example. My pops ran a drag car in the mid-60's. Everything was carbureted. He won a lot of match and money races during the 'street racing' days that spawned the drag world we know today. He was old school, even into the 70's. When guys he beat and out horse powered started with Nitrous and blowers and turbos and super chargers they started winning. For a long time he called it cheating and chicken shit. "If you can't win with 1 carburetor you ain't shit'.


    Guess how long he kept winning? Not many wins in the latter years. If it were not for the advent of bracket racing he would have had to hang it up long before he did.


    If there is something out there that makes something better, and winning is the goal, there is nothing wrong with going that way. S




     
    slim12, Sep 13, 2014
    #107
  8. Eagle

    Eagle Big Dog

    I can see your point, Slim. But, honestly, I myself would never feel I had a true Gr. CH. if it won by being conditioned with what I consider illegal enhancements.
    There must be a good and honest "honor code" used universally in order to properly estimate the true "foundation" of the stock.
    True bulldogs are built up, not enhanced, IMO, when speaking of a family of dogs, to consider breeding.

    The desire to "win" is what ruined the quality of many dogs, too, and is a cause of many today mistaking barnstormers and aggression as gameness.

    If everyone else in the competition agrees, then I reckon that's their call, if they consider it fair sportsmanship.

    I just come from the school of thought that when "winning and prizes" become the ultimate goal, it opens the door to unlimited vices and criminality, and all quality fades away.
     
    Eagle, Sep 14, 2014
    #108
  9. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    I agree. When winning is the goal people will stoop to anything, and on the other side others will do what it takes to rise up. If I thought steroid use was rampant and that there was tons and tons of people using them knowledgeably I may be more passionate about the subject.


    For me it is more of a non issue, especially because I try not to let titles and such factor in the breeding selection. When I choose to breed to a dog it is based on his entire family not just the dog with the title. If an entire family was chock full of curs and all of a sudden a freak popped up I would not care how his GRCH came about because past history has shown the odds of him throwing what he is are slim, and a lot of times none. If that same GRCH came from a family that was chock full of game dogs, winners and in turn producers, I would be more inclined to breed to him, again, regardless of how he got there. Because I am concerned with the entire package mores than the accomplishments of one.


    With that said, I can see your point. If you do not think the use of steroids is ethical or sportsman like, I can see why that may deter a person from looking at a 'steroid champ'. S
     
    slim12, Sep 14, 2014
    #109
  10. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    True Gr.Ch.? Do you really think the steroids makes the dog what he is? LMAO Its so mind boggling how so many ignorant people think that steroids is a super drug that will instantly turn Bruce Banner into the Incredible Hulk LMAO.

    Honor code to properly estimate the true foundation stock??? Are you serious? You must be green as grass if you think experienced dog men cant properly judge there own foundation stock with or with out the use of steroids LMAO.

    Only Green ass Newbies mistake barnstormers and aggression as gameness it has nothing to do with the desire to win LMAO.

    As long as the rules are equal for both parties then its considered fair sportsmanship.

    I dont know what school of thought you've come from BUT winning and wagers has always been the ultimate goal of a show. You are either new or blinded from the truth as this DOOR you speak of has always been open to criminality because it IS ILLEGAL.
     
    Saiyagin, Sep 14, 2014
    #110
  11. Eagle

    Eagle Big Dog

    What is that saying? "Great minds think alike."

    Yeah, true, many aces went on to produce nothing. That was my point about barnstorming. Just because a dog can win, doesn't mean it is game.
    The desire to win took over breeding for gameness above all else, imo. Many CH's were never really put to the test, or had to fight back to win.

    @Saiyagin: I think we are on two different pages.
    Point is, I'd prefer a dog that can win without having to use steroids. In any type of competition. That's it. I want to see what a dog can do naturally.
    I don't want anything to do with a family of dogs that must be built up.
    Better to cut a dog down to weight, IMO, that already has the strength.

    And in case you didn't know, the ApBT owner majority these days are in fact newbies.
    It is they who keep the bad reputation growing, and the oversized mutts producing, and misconceptions of the breed growing.
     
    Eagle, Sep 14, 2014
    #111
  12. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    I am on the page of truth which have already been written by the old timers, I dont know what page your on though LMAO.

    You should already know what your dog is capable of doing naturally, the same way you should already know what your dog is capable of doing naturally OTC, without any work/conditioning put on him.

    The only way steroids can be effective is if you WORK/CONDITION the dog and build him up , its the same process used with or without steroids when putting one in a keep.

    Bad reputation , misconceptions of the breed are spread by irresponsible and ignorant people (usually newbies) who cant discern a myth from the truth.

    ALSO the ONLY reason some people consider Steroids to be unethical or unsportsman like is because steroids is ILLEGAL to use in Legal sports.
     
    Saiyagin, Sep 14, 2014
    #112
  13. dwd58

    dwd58 Big Dog

    The question should be Evaluating a Steroid Champ. Steroids wont help or hurt the offspring of a steroid champ, but the steroids can mask a mediocre athlete by "enhancing" . When you are breeding to a mediocre athlete that has been enhanced , you are getting pups from a mediocre athlete. Just like if you are getting pups from a mediocre athlete that got his wins with 'rubs' , then you are getting pups from a mediocre athlete, not an athlete who has had its metal tested under true conditions. Some people can justify anything.
     
    dwd58, Sep 20, 2014
    #113
  14. ELIAS'PISTOLA

    ELIAS'PISTOLA CH Dog

    Dwd58 as a evaluation of our own we can make that call, but in the extreme fast lane a juiced mediocre dog that beats a great dog that had a natural keep means nothing but a win or loss. Remember alot of people cant use it right and it actually hurts most. On the other hand if done right it can add alot, but a good natural keep usually will beat a bad juice keep as theres more room for error. its safe to say if someones juicing they dont care about the mediocre evaluation but I LIKE YOUR EVALUATION on the subject and it would be nicer if everyone took that approach.
    Once again the biggest worry should be if the champs even producing and not sterile. Alot of big names used alternative studs when assuring you a litter. As a potential chance make sure your bitch dont leave your hands when the breedings are done, never send a bitch and except a photo as proof. Dna testing has alot of good as well as bad. If I could list some of the big names who insiders accuse of this, Im sure alot of people would be upset...
     
    ELIAS'PISTOLA, Sep 21, 2014
    #114
  15. 87buick

    87buick Top Dog

    Hence my first post to the thread, make sure you take your female personally
    And see everything.
     
    87buick, Sep 21, 2014
    #115
  16. slim12

    slim12 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Great post. This is a true statement. I would only add that steroids will not make a great dog out of a bad dog. It will not make a mediocre dog into an elite dog. It is the same dog, only a stronger and faster and if used correctly for longer.


    The issue with the topic is the natural assumption breeding and winning have some sort of correlation between the two. They are completely separate and neither has any bearing on the other, none whatsoever.


    If a person is going out to breed to a champ and all he considers is the champ in question then that is a slippery slope. The very best he can produce is the average of his family. If he is the lone good dog, steroids or not, out of a family of curs...odds are your breeding will result in curs as well. If, on the other hand he is a good dog, won with the enhancement of steroids, and comes from a litter of good dogs from a families of good dogs, odds are your breeding will produce good dogs. Steroids can't factor in here.


    It really should be two posts. 1. Would you rather have a natural or steroid champ? 2. What are you looking for when selecting a stud? from a successful litter, a successful family, # of wins, etc..etc..


    Two topics that do not correlate. S


     
    slim12, Sep 25, 2014
    #116
  17. Rock n Rye

    Rock n Rye CH Dog

    Seeing supposed dogmen use GrCh & Illegal in the same sentence is hilarious. If you don't want to breed to a steroid champ then make your own Ch without steroids..
     
    Rock n Rye, Sep 28, 2014
    #117
  18. TDK

    TDK CH Dog Staff Member

    I've said before that good, sound breeding, good care, good and sufficient schooling, good feed, good supplementation, good environment, good treatment, good conditioning etc are all the factors which help create a dog's success. Steroids being thrown in to supersede all these things as more important than they are is ludicrous. Way too much import is put on just another tweek in their entire care and conditioning. In fact, if you HAD to eliminate just one of those, would it not be the 'roids?

    I've also tried to point out that if you haven't seen your determining factors from a dog BEFORE you use anything such as Winstrol, then you surely SHOULD have, and since it's only logical that you have, what would the addition of such a work tweek mean, anyway? Especially as to breeding the dog. You school them and check them in their natural state. You should already know the probabilities of what the dog should be.

    If you think that if you don't use 'roids, you are lacking something in total that will determine your dog's quality, you are sorely mistaken. It isn't as if not using them means the dog can never be all it can be without them, or that a hundred other means of systemic enhancements and serious conditioning without 'roids, leave some huge void in the dog's prospectus of success. Too much emphasis on such a small entity in the total experience, and sometimes leaving not enough emphasis on the bulk of what is beneficial.
     
    TDK, Sep 29, 2014
    #118
  19. Saiyagin

    Saiyagin Chihuahua

    EXACTLY TDK , Good post as usual. Very similar to my views its just I cant speak or write as eloquent as you LOL.
     
    Saiyagin, Sep 29, 2014
    #119
  20. Dam1985

    Dam1985 Banned

    Question is how many people actually know how to use steroids properly on a dog?

    I can bet most men who have used PED's on a dog have probably done more harm than good thus nullifying the advantage they thought they were getting.
     
    Dam1985, Oct 1, 2014
    #120
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