Bull or Terrier???

Hi from South Africa guys. I am new to this forum so I wish to say hello to you all. I am very interested in the history of these great dogs. I believe from my research over the years on THE DOGS that Colby made a 50/50 cross between the original Bull Dog (now extinct) and the White English Terrier (now extinct) to give us our modern Pit Bull and Terrier dogs (they originally called them the Bull and Terrier or the half and half) that we all love today, the Bull Dog for its strength and gameness and the White Terrier for its agility and tenacity. Then there was the Blue Paul Terrier and Red Smuts (now extinct) from Scotland that were also bred and used for fighting and that were renouned for their gameness to the death and their extreme fighting ability that also went in there way back before Colby (the Irishman) crossed the White English Terrier in. The Blue Paul was also crossed with the Pit Bull and Terriers from Ireland and then went with the Scots to the new world (that's you guys) in the early 1800's and were used for working in the ring in the Americas and as you all know, from there it was best to best breeding that has evolved into our modern Game Dogs that we have today.

 

Thanks for your kind words Brenner and in regards to your last post, it is my belief that this wonderous overused word 'gameness' relates to the peoples own opinion of what they witness..and how they interpret it.
Over my years I have witnessed many displays of "dog on dog" gameness...not just pit bulldogs, but many different kinds of dogs.
The selection over the years to breed specifically for dog on dog combat has resulted in animals that are built for that particular task...the "form follows function" occurs, displaying animals with incredible durability, stamina and a particular mental state, being able to easily overwelm lesser apponents. In combat the #1 component is to win, therefore, the idea of having and breeding an animal that is game (will take his death trying to win)is always bolstering for ones (pride/ego?), but if the animal has no legs(for sake of a better example), then it boils down to either cruelty or a belief/hope that, that single trait will overcome all adversity.
There are many sayings over the history of combat dogs, from top dogmen, such as:
Gameness=another word for overmatched...
Lack of air makes curs of us all...
Under the right circumstances, they will all quit...

The "bulldogs of old" that you mention, (for me) haven't changed...but that is based on the pics, prints that we see and choose to like or dislike..I have found old examples of bulldogs that are identical to the type I like.
The popular idea of the brachyphelic bow legged Winston Churchill looking dog, as being the real 'old' bulldog, to me is absurd...and continuing to genetically purpetuate the malformations IMO is like breeding for mongoloid children. The Chinese tea trade was kind enough to bring us gifts of royal dogs..palace guard dogs..Pekinese etc etc...and next thing you know, when crossed into the 'bulldogs/mastiffs of the day...pretty scarey looking dogs and another selection process starts.
Today we see the evidence of people selecting genetic oddity over functionality and we see an animal lucky to get round a show ring let alone a field with a bull in it..
I have seen pit bulldogs able to take on all sorts of tasks...from combat, holding bulls, hunting hogs to denning badgers, catching birds etc etc and I believe this versatility comes from it being historically bred for exceptional genetics in body and mind...AND the gameness to please us, no matter the cost...
Just an opinion and different focus...for the sake of convo....yawnnnn...LOL

PS..your signature picture there...nearly identical to the bulldogs of "old" in my opinion and very famous...why? Colby's Pincher(which means Terrier in German..lol) was a whopping 72 lbs and as you can see...built fantastically for a dog that size

 

Your years of research tell you colby had the original bulldog and white terrier and made a 50/50 cross to create the breed of today lol

 

I do believe different breeds were added to the pitbull once it arrived over here as the colour variety is way more random in modern dogs.

 

Good post, bulldogs in theory are no gamer than the terriers of the day as both had to face quarry larger than themselves and both risked death due to their activities. Gameness is passed on through selective breeding and it surely is a trait that improves as a whole over generations. I know people take kindly to old romantic tales of dogs of the past fighting to their last breath to get the job done, but in my opinion finding true game dogs years ago was much harder than nowadays, read the book 30 years of fighting dogs and you'll find that matches on the whole were much shorter than modern matches. I believe the dogs of today are the gamest they have ever been!!

 

I'm confident these dogs are superior compared to the dogs of the past as well. Over the last 100 years they've improved phenotypically as well. The all around dog in the perfect package is the APBT.

 

Hello claidheamhmor...

That theory has been used commonly...but I have to disagree.
JP Colby drew from the best pit fighting dogs in England and Ireland..and imported them.
I believe the thought that there were two or three breeds of dogs (that are now extinct)while trying to explain the existance of a fighting dog, never has set well with me.
The white english terrier...thats now extinct? No, it's not extinct..there are many pit dogs that are white and have their roots in england...The English white Bull Terrier is a dog with it's roots imbedded overseas, although he used to look identical to the pit bulldog, this dog maybe a shadow of his former self today, but I believe this is one of the dogs that was part of the old pit bulldog make up

 

Had a redboy dog identical

 

Hi Steinlin, I believe the White English Terrier and the English White Bull Terrier (that's the okie with the roman nose) are two different breeds, the White English Bull Terrier still exists today but the White English Terrier does no longer exist although I think the White English Terrier blood does live on in the White English Bull Terrier and also is largely a part of the make up of our modern American Game Dogs. But also true, anything that could rock the boat and perform well in the ring went into the breeding of our modern American Game Dog. I think it was predominantly Bulldogs, White English Terriers, Blue Pauls and Old Family Reds that they were working with way back then, anything else most probably may have been eliminated from competition by the dogs were talking about now.

 

Steinlin, I'm with you on almost everything you wrote.

Life would be much easier if we just call them 'fighting dogs'. I mean, if I would be heavy on the Irish Old Family dogs, then I would probably not like the use of the term 'Bull' instead of 'Terrier'. But as a Colby guy I probably would be able to agree. But probably 'Bull' and 'Terrier' fits in there the best.

That's not funny. lol
It's a huge problem ! lol
The name Pincher must have been either a mistake or a joke.
At least I hope so. lol

 

gameness = the unability to quit

 

For people who say that gameness didn't come from bulldogs, you need to do more research on bull baiting. Gameness was the key element and that's what people were after. Part of the reason it became illegal was some would torture their dogs while in hold on a bull dog prove how game their dogs were. And terriers also have a different type of gameness. Also don't get the wrong idea, eventhough they aren't bred to do so a lot of patts when pushed have no problem going head to head with another dog and staying in there for. The long hall. The think the heart of both breeds def contributed to what we have today. And that is the ultimate symbol of gameness, the apbt surpassed bull and terrier in that department.

 

That was a bad statement. I just wanna say it's easier to let out the 'Bull' or 'Terrier' question.
I like to call them 'Game Dogs'. I mean, I like all dogs, but like those small part of game dogs better. The rest can be called curs, culls, mutts, Beagles, Shepards, Boston Bull, Boston Terrier, Bulldog, Fighting dogs, Terrier or whatever.
It's easier to call them Game Dogs, but then it's harder to get them.

 

I slightly disagree, bulldogs in my eyes don't need as much gameness as a working terrier as he doesn't take as much punishment as the terrier does. A bulldog either got a good hold or he was killed, no in between. A terrier is constantly fighting a foe that is as big and bites back, do you understand what I'm getting at?

 

no doubt ther are patts that will go the long hall, but then patterdales are usually game little terriers in their own respect, but then as i was saying in earlier post, i think the terriers of that time were more sit back and bark dogs rather than the take hold and get smashed up terriers that we see today when used for digging. as for bull baiting dogs being game, as was said earlier, gamness means different things to different people. a badger drawing dog is game to badger, a hog dog is game to hog, a hare coursing dog that keeps on its hare even after its egsausted is game to hare. as for people torturing dogs while they held their bull, well i might have read some of the same articals as you did but as i said earlier "paper doesnt refuse ink". maybe it is true but i think alot of the stuff we read on dogs history has to be taken with a pinch of salt. men have been driven by pride and ego well before me or you were born and when mans best friend is involved its usually double trouble. a.t.b

 

There was a story I read many many years ago when I was a kid about how this english lord proved how game his Bull Dogs that he was breeding were, and it has always stuck with me in my mind. I can't remember which book it was but it was about the Bulldog and I can't remember what the english lords name was but this is a true story. The setting was at a Bull baiting contest that was held in the early 1800's in the British Isles somewhere. Now the contest was well under way and it was the english lords turn to set his Bulldog onto the bull to see if the dog could pin the Bull. The dog rushed at the bull grabbing it by the nose and after a while the bull went down and was pinned. The lord took his dog back and released him again and again, time after time at the bull and the dog pinned the bull by grabbing it by the nose and holding until the bull went down each time. The dog by this time was truly exhausted but the lord took the dog back again but this time he drew his sword and chopped off the right front foot of the Bulldog. He then sent the Bulldog back at the bull and the dog took the bull by the nose and pinned him to the ground. The lord then took his exhausted Bulldog back and with his sword he removed the next foot from the Bulldog and sent the Bulldog back at the Bull. The dog again went to the bulls nose and holding on until the bull went down and was pinned. The lord did this four times, each time removing a foot from the Bulldog with his sword and each time he sent his dog, the dog went to the Bull and holding out on the Bull's nose until the Bull went down and was pinned. The lord then took his Bulldog back and turning to the spectators asked "does anyone question the gameness of my Bulldogs that I am breeding", he was met with dead silence from the crowd he then out of mercy for his dog that had put up such a show of gameness and determination took his sword and removed the Bulldogs head.

 

Nice romantic tale but highly doubtful

 

you forgot to start with," once opon a time". ive read this artical also and its exactly the kind of stuff im talking about in my previous post, i find this tale a very hard one to swallow

 

You'd be surprised about what a Game dog can do. There are some mythological stories from the history of Game dogs scratching by sliding themselves across on their chests with their front legs bit out from under them. But this is only myth and legend I've heard from stories told by those long lost dog men of the past around campfires . Couldn't possibly be true. Nobody would really believe that a mere dog would be capable of such a courageous attempt and effort at continuing to go on with such injuries sustained during a confrontation with another. Unbelievable. Must be all lies.

 

I understand your point of view, but I think we need to arrive at a common ground about what exactly "bulldogs" are about.
There were many forms of dogs that were used with livestock and still are used in the present day. Dogs are still used today for livestock, just as the Border Collies etc are used to herd, they use a bigger more aggressive dog for dangerous cattle. They call them Catahoula Leopard dogs and I have personally worked with them. They are a specifically bred dog for this purpose...they dont use pure pit bulldogs,(because they won't work with other dogs) but cross them with the Blue Heeler(for the herding traits) and a type of hound to get a taller dog that will work in team..these dogs are mostly pit bulldog and look it! Except for the coloration, they are bull dogs..but will work together most of the time and they are used mainly to move cattle and a bull that turns on them is taught a huge lesson on what not to do..

The stories/theories written about how bulldogs came to be, eg: said to have come into existance to help the butchers etc etc..is mainly the same as described above..the ancestors of the modern day pit bulldogs were developed in the same manner, BUT, when the cattle men came across a particularly (animal/bull) aggressive dog, it could be used to constrain the animal long enough to rope it or contain it..the sight of this comparitively small dog being able to turn the bull away was quite a scene..and as human greed is, this turned into a public spectacle drawing huge crowds..the dogs used with bulls would also fight all sorts of animals and dog vs dog
To make more money, organizers would then hold it in a gated areas(Westminster pit was one) and charge a fee to see it, but after many years, it became so out of control with deaths and serious trouble over wagering etc etc...so much so, that the public became outraged and therefore it was finally outlawed.

I have witnessed many examples of working bulldogs and I feel, to say they don't need as much gameness because they don't take as much punishment is incorrect. When going into a bull, (weight being anywhere from 900 to 2000 pounds)the dog(40 to 100 pounds) has to be quick and clever and know where he can get a hold without being hurt/killed..that is why the dog will try instinctively to get the nose(the most tender area)but this puts him in danger of being crushed...most will taunt the bull..go under the front legs or bite at the belly until he senses the bull getting tired...this isn't just a "one hold or you're dead", so I must disagree. As the organizers became bigger, they would think of all sorts of bizarre babaric spectacles..bull held by the nose and tortured by having one dog at a time go in...ANYWAY...the ones that were'nt good enough or did'nt put on a good 'performance and were killed or maimed were (more or less) a part of a selection process..thats why we still see this bull/animal behavior in todays pit bulldogs.
I, by no means, argue your point on terriers being game with their choice of partner to argue with...but are not MORE game...gameness in dogs is about consistancy and percentages..not any other breed have been selected and 'counted' for gameness alone...that I know of?
Just my humble opinion