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Conformation confirmation...

Discussion in 'Dog Discussion' started by tyburntree, Jan 26, 2012.

  1. Alright guys and gals. I searched for a while and found a few threads that helped, but nothing that covered exactly what I was looking for. Forgive me if there is already a post such as this, because I am almost certain there has to be one (just send me a link to it, please).

    I've only been around the American Pit Bull Terrier for a couple of years now, and I've become extremely passionate about the breed. So much so, that I plan to begin showing dogs and, hopefully after a few more years of experience, even breed these amazing creatures.

    But before I go any further with showing and such, I want to confirm my knowledge about the APBT conformation. I have read the ADBA standard multiple times (which is what I am concerned with...I am not as big a fan of UKC), and I believe I have a fairly decent grasp on what it calls for and what is a fault.

    So, if no one minds too much, I am going to post a couple of pictures of dogs that I find as very good examples of APBTs. Understand that none of these pictures are mine, they belong to their respective owners (and a few of these pictures will probably belong to users of this site).
    I would love for everyone to help me out by pointing out flaws and faults in the dogs so that I myself can become better at recognizing them.

    So here goes nothing
    Just tell me what you see wrong with each dog. For example: short back, splayed paws, bad rear angulation, poor head angulation, bad pasterns, etc.

    Thanks! (and have fun, guys. Don't get too offended if one of your dogs gets critiqued. Take it in stride)
    Also, I would like some of you to post your own photos for people to critique and for me to practice my "conformation eye"

    Thats it for now. Thanks! :)
  2. coop-dog

    coop-dog Big Dog

    Hi Bub why don't you start wiTh your hound .I would think the owners of these animals might like to know that they are up here .
  3. coop-dog, I don't know who owns these dogs, actually. I saved them in my computer a while back.
    The problem with posting my dogs is that only one of them is an actual APBT, and I view his conformation as quite a mess.
    But I guess you are right.
    Here is my APBT boy-




    Some things I personally see wrong in his conformation:
    long body, poor back leg angle, I wouldn't consider his tail "pump handle", he is very large (72lbs), and he has a slight paw splay
    Does anyone see any other issues I have missed?
  4. Don't be an idiot. Taking pictures that don't belong to you and posting them up isn't ethical and we won't allow it. Have some common sense.
  5. I apologize. I did not know.
  6. BBT

    BBT Big Dog

    I don't like his back. His weight is a non issue and he could lose a couple if that's what you want. I like length and I would never penalize a long dog but I would penalize a short length or boxy dog.

    Think of it like whatever weight he is you want balance to benefit the athlete. So too big a head and your throwing pounds to the head that takes away body weight so you would in essence be going against a bigger dog. An avg to longer bodied dog is more agile than a boxy low slung dog and has the length to support leverage.

    Almost like comparing body builders to boxers. There's always exceptions just saying on a general level
  7. Smo_King

    Smo_King Pup

    Chain Reaction...

    Strictly from a conformation stand point this is my opinion on what I see.
    poor rear angulation is the biggest issue with your dog. That flaw leads to several others, because he is so straight legged in the rear it is causing his rear to be high, The high rear is causing a poor top line aka sway back, the poor top line is causing his natural posture to lean forward, which causes more weight strain on the front legs, causing him to have poor postures and slight easty westy feet, and slightly splayed toes. that's why I started by saying Chain Reaction All these things cause for poor movement in a show ring stand point...
  8. Thank you, BBT
    My concern is more that his size seems relatively abnormal when compared to others. My issue is not so much his weight, but his overall size in general. Though I suppose as long as he is proportional, it is not that big of a deal.
    I am not a fan of his back either, though I can not pinpoint why. I believe he is slightly sway-backed. He doesn't have a level topline or a roach back, which are what I consider acceptable.
  9. BBT

    BBT Big Dog

    Sumo broke it down for you so that should answer your questions as to why. Conformation guys look for things like this when picking. Good Luck.
  10. @Smo_King
    That makes a lot of sense. As I just said (I didn't see your post before I posted), he seems sway backed.
    Very interested to know that his rear angulation is the cause of all those issues.
    Great post.
  11. fonzie

    fonzie Top Dog

    To get good lookn bulldogs u need to start with a good lookn pair and from there it's is all selective breeding and from there just breed for the close ADBA, UKC, AKC ect. standers or breed for what u like in a am. pittbull terrier. There so many things you could breed for
  12. genevieve

    genevieve Big Dog

    Second what Sumo said, most of this dogs issues are secondary to a total lack of angulation in the stifle and hock.

    Best way to get a good show dog is to go to an ADBA show, see a dog that you like winning in the ring and strike up a conversation with the handler to see if they have pups available or will have in the future. Look for a dog that is out of Champion show dogs, preferably ones that have produced other Champions. Be respectful and not pushy and most people will be happy to talk to you.
  13. benthere

    benthere CH Dog Staff Member

    this is a great topic.

    what most fail to "get" about conformation regarding the APBT (i'm talking about adba judges and exhibitors, the ukc dogs might as well be bullies in my opinion) is the importance of working type, meaning suitability to do the job asked of the breed. i do not need to get into a discussion of the job at hand, we all know what it is, or should i say was. when i look at a dog to judge its conformation thats the first thing that comes to my mind. does this dog have the right type? could it even do the job if asked? the majority of the dogs i see at shows do not have "working type" in my opinion (but thats just my opinion take it for what its worth). they are generally beautiful dogs in great health taken care of by owners who obviously go to great lengths to prepare them for the shows.
    so when we break a dog down to pieces looking at the angulation of the shoulder, hock, shape of head or set of tail what are we really looking for?? i had this conversation with a friend this week who shows alot of dogs, we were looking over his yearlings and there was one that he was particulary high on for a show prospect. i took a look at him and in my opinion he had a brother right next to him that had a much more "useful" body. i thought to myself, that one there (the one he likes for a show dog) might have the heart but with his body he would most likely be a game loser at best. i won't go into details here but there were a few things wrong with him that i didn't like. on the other hand he had a brother that has all the tools and the right attitude to go with it. i said "why don't you show this guy?" he said "well, he's a little too long in the back, i think they'll knock him for that." to my eye he was a pretty square dog and his brother was close coupled or short backed, a FLAW in conformation in my opinion worse than many other so called faults because a close coupled dog is a weaker dog!! these days when i go to a show most of the winning dogs are short backed and light boned, 2 FATAL faults in my opinion, but thats what takes home the ribbons so thats what becomes popular.
    to make a long story short there are good judges and poor judges, the ADBA has both.
  14. coop-dog

    coop-dog Big Dog

    Benthere.Besides the short back in your opinion what else do you feel the dogs you see are lacking for the job at hand.
  15. benthere

    benthere CH Dog Staff Member

    dianne jessup is full of shit. she wouldn't know a bulldog if it bit her fat ass. she has 3 pictures of "real" bulldogs on her pages. all the others look like UKC/AKC petbulls, Dogos, American Bulldogs and assorted street bred mutts.
    first the pic of blue monday. close to perfect in my opinion.
    second the pic of the red buckskin bitch on page 8. she says it "long in the loin" she doesn't know what she's looking at, that bitch has "winner" written all over her. ever seen a picture of Tornado or Queen of Hearts?? they had the same "fault".
    the third is the chocalate rednose dog that she claims is "out at the elbows" all i can say is dianne jessup wound have culled Redboy, Tab, his brother Tramp, Tab's great son Gator, along with Deacon and Hunter Red for this fault. she's an idiot at best and she knows LESS than nothing about this great breed.

    here is dianne jessup in her infinite wisdom, a quote from her website regarding a dog that looked no worse than radarman posted in the pedigree below.
    remember this is the woman that (stole) evaluated Pat Patricks dogs when they were (stolen) confiscated and had them (killed) put down because she said they had such poor conformation that they were of no use to her buddies in law enforcement.

    "This happy guy is "out at the elbows". This is a serious fault in any working animal. No matter how hard he tries, this animal will never be as strong or sound as an animal correctly built.
    These dogs face enough challenges today - they don't need more caused by careless, uneducated or greedy breeders"

    i sure wish i was around 25 years ago to buy a dog from that "careless" breeder the kitten.
    here is a fine example of her work. notice the elbows!!
  16. benthere

    benthere CH Dog Staff Member

    TYPE. WORKING type.
    for example, this is one with "type" in my opinion.
    when i have more time i can elaborate. maybe look up the thread "what happened to the bulldogs?".
  17. benthere

    benthere CH Dog Staff Member

    dianne jessup has about as much credibility as randall lockwood or john goodwin in my book.
    if you choose to defend her and use her as a reference that says something about your character in regards to the world of the gamedog. maybe the board would be a better place without your attitude.
  18. northdogger

    northdogger Big Dog

    Some great posts benthere. Always good info in your posts. Keep them coming
  19. sadieblues

    sadieblues CH Dog

    I don't know how your dog is bred but just going off what I see it doesn't look like an APBT to me. I was thinking your dog was a staff with some bully blood mixed in there so it would be hard to compare the dog to the APBT standard IMO the dog's conformation doesn't fit the working type dog.
  20. benthere

    benthere CH Dog Staff Member

    looks like an akc staff to me.

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