Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

“Your right on the other dogs giving him more security so I'm going to try keeping him away from all the other dogs and work with him while he is a bit off balance, per say.. hmm that may be why I'm not making any progress.”
Why would you intentionally remove, the only structure and security that he has in his life? The other dog’s are not the problem, it’s his owners have never established the “alpha” role.

“Right now I'm working with him daily but mostly in the evening after work.”
That’s good, as long as it is consistent training. The dog needs to be walked daily, preferably around kids, and any other insecurities it has (avoidance can’t help them any!). If using a choke chain for a training aid, make sure it’s on correctly (dog on left side should look like a “P” when placed on the dog, and a “6” if dog is on the right side) and placed right behind the ears. Try to correct the dog if a problem rises when it’s at a level “1” don’t let it escalate too a 5 or worse.

“If I could find someone that had the time and willingness to take him on I'd consider letting them give it a go.”
That’s a major problem with these dogs, individuals screw them up, then try too pawn them off on others. His problems can be easily corrected and should show improvements daily.

“I wouldn't be able to let him go to anyone with kids, and of course the person would have to have lots of experience with APBT.”
Kids are not the dog’s problem…..lack of leadership and guidance from humans is! Once he is given that, his other problems and insecurities will vanish.

“I can already see where there are going to be dog aggression issues.”
That is a simple way too see, who spends time with their dogs. If the owner truly have set their self up to be viewed as the “alpha”. You will never see theirs dogs showing any kind of aggression while on a leash and if they do try, they correct it before most would even notice.

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

Why would you intentionally remove, the only structure and security that he has in his life? The other dog’s are not the problem, it’s his owners have never established the “alpha” role.

Actually the other dogs do seem to be his problem. He is so focused on the other dogs he will not focus on me. If I can't get his focus how can I help him? He literally will freak out close to me, and will NOT make eye contact for more than a second, even when I do get him to come to me.


That’s good, as long as it is consistent training. The dog needs to be walked daily, preferably around kids, and any other insecurities it has (avoidance can’t help them any!). If using a choke chain for a training aid, make sure it’s on correctly (dog on left side should look like a “P” when placed on the dog, and a “6” if dog is on the right side) and placed right behind the ears. Try to correct the dog if a problem rises when it’s at a level “1” don’t let it escalate too a 5 or worse.

Now I agree with you about the consistance, and the daily walks but at this point not on the kids issue. Until I have an handle on his fear aggression there is NO WAY I'd have kids anywhere near him. He is extremely fearful of kids, more so than adults, and has already growled at a 5 year old. I have a choke collar, but haven't even considered using it since he is walking alright with a normal collar, except when we begin to leave the "comfort" of the sight of the other dogs... I will have to dig it out and see if I can work with him some with it. My concern would be for him to start freaking out, begin to choke himself by running, then get even more scared and make matters worse. I could just see getting bit because I'm trying to stop him from strangling himself and him seeing me as the reason its happening..


That’s a major problem with these dogs, individuals screw them up, then try too pawn them off on others. His problems can be easily corrected and should show improvements daily.

That's just the problem. He isn't showing improvements daily, and this isn't a problem that can be fixed with a small amount of time/attention. I've had him for almost 2 weeks now with NO improvement, none.



Kids are not the dog’s problem…..lack of leadership and guidance from humans is! Once he is given that, his other problems and insecurities will vanish.

I agree kids are not the dog's problem, but there is no way I'd place a 10 month old APBT with fear aggression issues in a home with children. No way in hell, its too much of a risk for the kid as well as the dog.


That is a simple way too see, who spends time with their dogs. If the owner truly have set their self up to be viewed as the “alpha”. You will never see theirs dogs showing any kind of aggression while on a leash and if they do try, they correct it before most would even notice.

He isn't showing dog aggressive signs on the leash. I observed him for over an hour in a pen with 8 other APBTs and could already see dominant posturing toward the older male who was "in charge". I really wish you could meet my Oden dog..lol At home I am the alpha, in charge and he does exactly what I say, when I say it. Take him to a show ring and all bets are off, no corrects work, although he hears and understand because he flicks his ear at commands. We worked, and worked on this problem with no success, it didn't matter. Now, if you have some ideas please I'm open to them...


I'm not trying to argue with you by no means. I am honestly trying to understand what you are saying. This dog has huge issues, and so far everything I've tried hasn't worked, so at this point I'm willing to try anything. Normal corrections, attention, and walking is making no difference. He isn't improving at all. He actually has done the nervous pace growl at me a few times in the mornings ( go out every morning to greet and talk to him as well) and its breaking my heart.

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

LR - I mean no offense, but it really sounds like this pup should be PTS. I know he is one of your boys, and you feel somewhat responsible for how he is, but the simple truth is he is an unstable APBT - a liability. If it were anyone else asking what to do, I feel like a great many on the board would feel euthanasia was the only option. Again - I mean no offense; just speaking my mind. I certainly would not want to be in your place.

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

Lady, this is the Blue dog, correct? Do you know his lines? I ask because in some lines you will find the shyness with the "protectiveness" (watchdog is one line that I've seen it in) While it is more based on the idividual dogs used in one's breeding program (not the entire line) you might want to consider that senerio..that this behavoir was already there and by the neglect he suffered, it made it worse. Sometimes damage like this cannot be undone. Whould I give up on him? well, I would give him a few more weeks.

I was thinking, too. (going to get creative here) since he depends on other dogs so much, why not make that part of his reward. He needs to be conditioned. Start by taking him out of view of the other dogs for a second ( just long enough so he doesnt panic or get worked up) then take him back into view as a reward. Basically what you are trying to do is show him the dogs will be there and its ok to step away (you would gradually increase your time away)

As for paying attention to you, I have a way that has worked on more stubborn cases. I will pm it to you as its lengthy

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

Spencerpits - No offense taken at all. Before I had picked this boy up I was set on having him PTS just on their discribtion of his actions, but once meeting him and seeing his behavior I had to give it a try. I really think I can reach him, I just have to figure out how. He is in no way a liability at this point. He is at my home, which the closest neighbors are a mile in either direction with no kids, we have no kids, and the person working with him is me. He is not out in public, and since I am the one taking all the risk here there is no way he would have an opportunity to hurt anyone. If I can't get through to him then, unfortunately, he will be PTS.

Rocksteady - This isn't a blue dog. He is actually down from my yard. His mother was farmed out to a friend and his father is my pure colby male, so I know his background and this isn't normal behavior. I actually think your reward idea could work... I'm going to try it tonight and see what happens.

My husband has already said he doesn't see any improvement and that its looking more and more like there is only one answer, but I'm pretty stubborn and if there is anyway I can help this guy out I had to try.

Thanks for all the help. I'll let you know how he responded to the reward treatment tomorrow!!

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

“Actually the other dogs do seem to be his problem. He is so focused on the other dogs he will not focus on me. If I can't get his focus how can I help him?”
While training him, it should be done in a somewhat none distractive environment.

“He literally will freak out close to me, and will NOT make eye contact for more than a second, even when I do get him to come to me.”
When his is in that “state of mind”, what do you do?

“Now I agree with you about the consistance, and the daily walks but at this point not on the kids issue.”
They do nee consistence in their training. You need to establish yourself a “alpha”, and once that has happened nothing should phase the dog. If you never introduce him to kids or any other things that take him or any other dog out of their comfort zone, how are they ever going to learn to deal with it? The key to it is, being able to recognize when the dog is starting to take its focus off you and apply it else where. Once that starts to happen, you as the handler, should redirect the attention back towards you….causing the dog to return too its “calm submissive” state.

“Until I have an handle on his fear aggression there is NO WAY I'd have kids anywhere near him.”
That can’t happen until, he sees you and any other household members as “alpha”!

“He is extremely fearful of kids, more so than adults, and has already growled at a 5 year old.”
That’s perfectly normal, for a dog with no guidance and leadership. The pack leader (alpha), is always in a calm, assertive mind set, which keeps the others in the pack, in a calm submissive state.

“ I have a choke collar, but haven't even considered using it since he is walking alright with a normal collar, except when we begin to leave the "comfort" of the sight of the other dogs... I will have to dig it out and see if I can work with him some with it.”
A “choke chain” is not a torture device, it only facilitates you with your goal, while provide you with control. Where as a “normal” collar provides minimal control. Any training aid should always be place up high on the neck, right behind the ears (much like how the show handlers place theirs). A choke chain is not supposed to harm or frighten the animal. It only takes a very light to firm correction most of the time, if you are paying attention to the body language of dog. You’re wanting to establish the alpha role, not instill fear in your dog!

“My concern would be for him to start freaking out, begin to choke himself by running, then get even more scared and make matters worse.”
It won’t last long, if you stay in the calm assertive mode, and don‘t allow it too happen. The key to dog training is, don’t allow it to ever get to that point. If it does handle it in a calm manner. If he freaks out, then you become excited and such, it will only reassure him, that his feeling of “fear” was warranted. The running should never be a concern, the dog doesn’t need more leash than what would allow him to walk next to you without any resistance. There shouldn’t be 4 foot of leash available for him to walk wherever he pleases. You lead, he follows!

“I could just see getting bit because I'm trying to stop him from strangling himself and him seeing me as the reason its happening.”
If you are projecting a calm assertive energy, he will never attempt to bite. He shouldn’t be allowed too ever reach that point.

“ He isn't showing improvements daily, and this isn't a problem that can be fixed with a small amount of time/attention. I've had him for almost 2 weeks now with NO improvement, none.”
Is it him, or you are getting discouraged with the process? He should show improvements within 30 minutes to one hour. Within the 2 weeks time frame you’ve had him, there is no reason, for you to of not been able to established the alpha role.

“I agree kids are not the dog's problem, but there is no way I'd place a 10 month old APBT with fear aggression issues in a home with children. No way in hell, its too much of a risk for the kid as well as the dog.”
I wouldn’t ever expect you too.

“He isn't showing dog aggressive signs on the leash. I observed him for over an hour in a pen with 8 other APBTs and could already see dominant posturing toward the older male who was "in charge".”
It would be hard to say without actually seeing it. It could actually be, he is being antagonized by the other pups. If that’s the case, you not seeing “dominance” you actually seeing a fear induced response. Kinda like I’m going too get you before you get me, mentality.

“I really wish you could meet my Oden dog..lol At home I am the alpha, in charge and he does exactly what I say, when I say it.”
That’s good, but if you are 100% alpha figure. It won’t matter where ya’ll are, he should act the same.

“Take him to a show ring and all bets are off, no corrects work, although he hears and understand because he flicks his ear at commands.”
Then that’s most likely because…..(1) you haven’t established yourself to be 100% leader, (2) you’re not paying any attention to his body language, and correcting the problem, before he gets all worked up. Once a dogs reaches a level 8-10 they won’t hear anything you have too say, especially bulldogs, they are very determined and focused dogs, or (3) you are not staying in a calm, dominate mindset and he is just feeding off your energy.

“We worked, and worked on this problem with no success, it didn't matter. Now, if you have some ideas please I'm open to them.”
All behavioral problems with dogs are basically handled the same way. You need to be more in tuned with your dog. Once you see his ears move forward (for instance), give correction, redirect his attention to you (which it should be). The major key is to correct it before is escalates to a more advanced stage, all the while you remaining calm and assertive.

“I'm not trying to argue with you by no means.”
I realize that.
“I am honestly trying to understand what you are saying. This dog has huge issues, and so far everything I've tried hasn't worked, so at this point I'm willing to try anything.”
I understand where you’re coming from. The “dog training” concepts are going through a major overhaul, that started (becoming more mainstream) about 6-8 years ago. Much like, what horses went through about 20 years or so ago. The conventional methods are being shown to be very limited in there effectiveness with behavioral problems.

“Normal corrections, attention, and walking is making no difference.”
It won’t either, until his needs are meet. All dogs need the same things (in this order) exercise, discipline, and then affection. No dog should ever be given affection, if their mind is not at ease!

“He isn't improving at all. He actually has done the nervous pace growl at me a few times in the mornings ( go out every morning to greet and talk to him as well) and its breaking my heart.”
Sorry too hear that! His improvement will be limited to you level of experience in training with behavioral issues. It is a man induced problem that has resulted from its “humans”. If the dog is important to you, and you lack the experience to correct his issues. I’d recommend looking into having a dog psychologist (if there is any in your area, still not mainstream yet) come out to the house and help you. They will be able to instruct and show you what you’re doing wrong, and help you greatly. Don’t waste your money on a conventional trainer. Once you see a knowledgeable one (dog psychologist) work, you’ll be highly impressed, and see the ease of this concept of training.

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

While training him, it should be done in a somewhat none distractive environment.
I may have to start taking him for a short drive to neutral area with no other dogs to see what I can do. I've been using the front yard, but he can still hear and see the other dogs from a distance.


When his is in that “state of mind”, what do you do?
Continue to speak quietly and encourage him to come to me. I usually am down on the ground at this point because if I stay standing he doesn't even consider coming any closer. He sometimes calms enough to "slink" forward toward me where I can pet him but will tremble in fear, and flinch at every movement I make. I try to keep a quiet encouraged voice with him and continuous talking repeating his name every little bit.


They do nee consistence in their training. You need to establish yourself a “alpha”, and once that has happened nothing should phase the dog. If you never introduce him to kids or any other things that take him or any other dog out of their comfort zone, how are they ever going to learn to deal with it? The key to it is, being able to recognize when the dog is starting to take its focus off you and apply it else where. Once that starts to happen, you as the handler, should redirect the attention back towards you….causing the dog to return too its “calm submissive” state.
Here is my problem, how can I establish myself as the "alpha" without scaring him or freaking him out? I do have plans to introduce him to kids and other people but I know I can't do that without getting a handle on his fear of me first. He really has no comfort zone at this point, other than the comfort on being near the other dogs. He has no focus other than the other dogs. I'm still trying to find a way to help him focus on me.

A “choke chain” is not a torture device, it only facilitates you with your goal, while provide you with control. Where as a “normal” collar provides minimal control. Any training aid should always be place up high on the neck, right behind the ears (much like how the show handlers place theirs). A choke chain is not supposed to harm or frighten the animal. It only takes a very light to firm correction most of the time, if you are paying attention to the body language of dog. You’re wanting to establish the alpha role, not instill fear in your dog!
But by using the choke chain and not having an alpha role I think I will instill fear in this boy. He has had limited experience on the lead, doesn't pull and generally walks behind me or at my side anyway. I am going to get it out and see what I can do with it though..

It won’t last long, if you stay in the calm assertive mode, and don‘t allow it too happen. The key to dog training is, don’t allow it to ever get to that point. If it does handle it in a calm manner. If he freaks out, then you become excited and such, it will only reassure him, that his feeling of “fear” was warranted. The running should never be a concern, the dog doesn’t need more leash than what would allow him to walk next to you without any resistance. There shouldn’t be 4 foot of leash available for him to walk wherever he pleases. You lead, he follows!
I'm still a bit hestitant about this, but I'm willing to try it. I'm going to have to wait until the weekend when my husband will be home to help if I have some problems with this one. I'm using a 4 foot lead now, and when he does freak out it is at the end of his lead and jerking/pacing/running backward the entire time. It usually takes me a minute or two to calm him enough to walk again, which is where my concern on the collar comes in. If he does freak and the collar tighten, reassuring him that his fear was indead warrantied he may (then again may not) go over the deep end, so to speak.


If you are projecting a calm assertive energy, he will never attempt to bite. He shouldn’t be allowed too ever reach that point.

True, very good point. But I'm hesitant to see how much it would take for him TO reach that point as well.

Is it him, or you are getting discouraged with the process? He should show improvements within 30 minutes to one hour. Within the 2 weeks time frame you’ve had him, there is no reason, for you to of not been able to established the alpha role.
Again, this goes back to a previous answer... How exactly do I establish that in his current state of terror?? I'm actually not get discouraged with him until I get back inside and start thinking about the lack of progress, but I'll be sure to watch myself alot closer because I could be giving him a discouraged impression and not even realizing.



It would be hard to say without actually seeing it. It could actually be, he is being antagonized by the other pups. If that’s the case, you not seeing “dominance” you actually seeing a fear induced response. Kinda like I’m going too get you before you get me, mentality.
This wasn't antagonized or fear responses to the older dog, it was challenging posture. They had already had a few run ins in the pen and he was "looking" for ways to "push" the older dog. He was extremely comfortable in the pen with all the other dogs, confident, no cowing, head and tail held high. This was one of the main reasons I saw hope in rehabilitating him. I really feel if I could get him to face his fears, bring his confidence up he'd be alright. He was a different dog in that pen with all the others.

That’s good, but if you are 100% alpha figure. It won’t matter where ya’ll are, he should act the same.
Maybe, but with his case...lol In most public places he is a ham, its the show sites that sets him off. There is no other warning other than automatic outright aggression to the other dogs.

Then that’s most likely because…..(1) you haven’t established yourself to be 100% leader, (2) you’re not paying any attention to his body language, and correcting the problem, before he gets all worked up. Once a dogs reaches a level 8-10 they won’t hear anything you have too say, especially bulldogs, they are very determined and focused dogs, or (3) you are not staying in a calm, dominate mindset and he is just feeding off your energy.
He is worked up from the site of the show..lol Treats will not distract him, corrections will not distract him, nothing has worked, well a towel completely covering his crate to make sure he can't see anything sometimes helps a little..lol I've been calm to the point of relaxing as he takes a "wind" break and him almost jerking me off my feet by suddenly jumping forward to continue his acting up, simple because he knows I'm relaxing..lol My husband shows him now if we decided to take him, because he can handle him, and if need be he can pick him up and at least get him off his feet and turn away from all other dogs, while he continues to bark. He's a trip to see at home, then at the show. I've had people stare and ask if he has multiple personalities..lol Oden is a different story all together..lol

All behavioral problems with dogs are basically handled the same way. You need to be more in tuned with your dog. Once you see his ears move forward (for instance), give correction, redirect his attention to you (which it should be). The major key is to correct it before is escalates to a more advanced stage, all the while you remaining calm and assertive.
I completely understand that, and have had outstand success with many other dogs. Oden seems to be my exception.

It won’t either, until his needs are meet. All dogs need the same things (in this order) exercise, discipline, and then affection. No dog should ever be given affection, if their mind is not at ease!
I think that is my problem at this point. I'm not exactly sure what needs to work with first. I've tried affection which obviously isn't working, but am nervous about the discipline part when he is already so frightened. Now the exercise I can deal with. The daily walks are going good but I may need to up the time we are doing it, maybe see if I can get him interested in a hide.

Sorry too hear that! His improvement will be limited to you level of experience in training with behavioral issues. It is a man induced problem that has resulted from its “humans”. If the dog is important to you, and you lack the experience to correct his issues. I’d recommend looking into having a dog psychologist (if there is any in your area, still not mainstream yet) come out to the house and help you. They will be able to instruct and show you what you’re doing wrong, and help you greatly. Don’t waste your money on a conventional trainer. Once you see a knowledgeable one (dog psychologist) work, you’ll be highly impressed, and see the ease of this concept of training.

Funny you should suggest this when just this morning I had an offer from a forum member to help me out with this boy. So if I can't get any improvements out of him by the end of May he may be going to get help from a dog rehab specialist. I'm really going to give it a huge try myself, and appreciate all the help so far!!

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

Call Ceasar from "THE DOG WHISPERER" on Animal Planet. That man is Fuc*ing amazing. IF he can't figure out a way to fix him than no one can. You may think im joking but no bullshit, the man is good. Real Good.

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

“I've been using the front yard, but he can still hear and see the other dogs from a distance.”
Are you actually walking or just staying in the yard (training)?

“He sometimes calms enough to "slink" forward toward me where I can pet him but will tremble in fear, and flinch at every movement I make. I try to keep a quiet encouraged voice with him and continuous talking repeating his name every little bit.”
Words don’t need to be spoken, they are more for the “human” than the dogs. Dog’s have the ability and senses too tell if we are happy, sad, frightened, anxious, etc.

“Here is my problem, how can I establish myself as the "alpha" without scaring him or freaking him out?”
Simply by walking. Properly walking a dog, is more than just sharing time together. You are actually having them follow you, you are controlling when they sniff, pee, etc. They are not allowed to do anything, unless you give them permission (hence “alpha” role). Don’t misconstrue becoming alpha with instilling fear in them, to make them submit too you. Dog’s are born followers, they follow, and do what the alpha male says without any questions.

“He really has no comfort zone at this point, other than the comfort on being near the other dogs. He has no focus other than the other dogs. I'm still trying to find a way to help him focus on me.”
That’s because they know how to communicate with him. You seem to be cowering and trying to “sneak” up on him. Which is not something any alpha dog would do. Am I saying charge him, no. But you should approach in a confidant manner, that is none threatening. You are making a bigger issue out of it that it needs too be. Which is why he is more comfortable and attentive to the other dogs. They confidently approach, sniff, and it’s not a big be drawn out ordeal.

“But by using the choke chain and not having an alpha role I think I will instill fear in this boy.”
The choke chain is only a training aid, not a torture devise (control the nose, you control 80% of the dog). If used correctly the dog won’t choke itself, nor will it instill fear in them. All that is needed it a quick tug, followed by a quick release. The main thing is for you to stay calm, and assertive, no matter whatever chaos is happening with the dog and/or around ya’ll.

“I'm using a 4 foot lead now, and when he does freak out it is at the end of his lead and jerking/pacing/running backward the entire time.”
Why is he given that much of the leash? If he is given 4 foot of leash, you have no control over him, and he is doing whatever he decides, instead of what you tell him.

“It usually takes me a minute or two to calm him enough to walk again, which is where my concern on the collar comes in.”
You shouldn’t be trying to calm him down, instead redirect his energy and let your body language, calm him (words don’t need to be spoken) down. If taking that long to calm him down, you have missed some of the warning signs he has been showing. It very important to notice and correct when the first warning signs are given. It only takes a second to redirect their focus back on you, and prevent it from escalating.

“If he does freak and the collar tighten, reassuring him that his fear was indead warrantied he may (then again may not) go over the deep end, so to speak.”
He won’t “go over the deep end”. Right now you are allowing the dog too control you, instead of you controlling the dog. If you continue to give him praise when he is unstable, you will never help him, but make him worse. If they sulk and stop moving (brain lock down, if you will), you have to redirect them (sometime a touch on the back while pulling forward with the other hand, or change of direction works) to get him and his brain moving forward again.

“But I'm hesitant to see how much it would take for him TO reach that point as well.”
Then you shouldn’t be taking on this task, you’ll only eventually make him worse. Every time you pick up a leash, you should, all ready have visualized the outcome. If you’re fearful of getting bit, it will happen. As long as you’re hesitant, the dog will never follow you willingly!

“Again, this goes back to a previous answer... How exactly do I establish that in his current state of terror??”
That won’t happen until you have the confidence too make it happen. You say you “want” to gain the alpha role, just you’re hesitant and fearful of getting bit. Which that mindset will never allow you to reach your goal. Nobody follows a timid individual, be it man or animal!

“He was extremely comfortable in the pen with all the other dogs, confident, no cowing, head and tail held high.”
Because dogs, know how to communicate and treat other dogs. We “humans” try to treat them like they are “kids”. With “kids” they need comfort and reassurance when frightened, scared, insecure, etc. But if we do that with dogs, we only create more problems. That’s why I said; never praise or give affection too an unstable mind.

“I really feel if I could get him to face his fears, bring his confidence up he'd be alright.”
You asking him too face and overcome his fears, while willingly following you. Yet, you have yet to face your own fears. Doesn’t make much since, does it?

“Maybe, but with his case...lol In most public places he is a ham, its the show sites that sets him off.”
It’s basically the same thing the other dog (new pup) is exhibiting. Just the new pup hasn’t bonded with you any. You are not the leader, you are basically their roommate (in their mind).

“He is worked up from the site of the show..lol Treats will not distract him”
Again, you praising and nurturing an unstable mind. If you are telling him it’s ok of him to behave that way, why shouldn’t he?

“I've been calm to the point of relaxing as he takes a "wind" break and him almost jerking me off my feet by suddenly jumping forward to continue his acting up, simple because he knows I'm relaxing.”
Being a calm “roommate” doesn’t really matter. Until you gain the alpha role, you’ll never have control over any dog!

“I've had people stare and ask if he has multiple personalities”
It’s not “multiple personalities”, it is simply at home the two of you are in ya’ll comfort zone. Once arriving at the show, he is picking up on the energy vibe that is there (much like you new pup with kids). Being he has no “pack leader”, he believes he has to “protect” his pack (you and your family).

“I completely understand that, and have had outstand success with many other dogs.”
Sounds like you do have other problems with the other dogs, just his are more sever.

“I'm not exactly sure what needs to work with first.”
I’ve all ready told you….exercise, discipline, and then affection. You give them “exercise” to take the edge off them, “discipline” is to give them guidance and let them know you’re in control, and once they are in a calm, submissive state of mind you show/give affection.

“I've tried affection which obviously isn't working, but am nervous about the discipline part when he is already so frightened.”
Nurturing an unstable mind, will never work. I’m thinking you’re taking “discipline” as being mean to the dog. Which is not the case! Is just giving him guidance, and letting him know what is expected from him.

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

With the knowledge you contain it is very obvious you've been into dogs a long time. Great posts and advice Texas. I've learned a few things from reading your posts as well. Thanks for sharing your experience. You have a great understanding of canine behavior.

Regards,

B of B&D Kennels

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

He was extremely comfortable in the pen with all the other dogs, confident, no cowing, head and tail held high.”
Because dogs, know how to communicate and treat other dogs. We “humans” try to treat them like they are “kids”. With “kids” they need comfort and reassurance when frightened, scared, insecure, etc. But if we do that with dogs, we only create more problems. That’s why I said; never praise or give affection too an unstable mind.


this is very true. When you coddle and pamper a dog that is acting "in fear" or doing some sort of bad behavor, you are actually encouraging the behavior. In a dogs mind he thinks the grooming, petting, etc (as referring to pack mentality) is a good thing and he will associate the good thing with the fear or bad behavior (ie action = reaction)

And Texasbulldog brought up one other good point. We often assign human qualites to our dogs when in fact we are wrong. Dogs are not humans. they dont think like us.

but one thing, you have to remember that Domiance and Leadership are two different things. Being the Alpha doesnt mean you are "barking" commands, being loud or rough. You can be the alpha and never say a word. It is all in your actions. But you still have to be a leader and let the dog know what is acceptable. It doesnt have to be a pat on the head, it can be a sound (like in clicker) a toy, a treat, the dogs favorite activity

Another person to look into is a behavoirist. They deal specifically with the behavor of the dog and how the dog and its people interact with each other.

An obedience instructor helps teach people how to teach commands. A dog trainer trains the dog itself. Generally they are not qulaified behavorists.

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

I agree. Very well said Rocksteady that's exactly how I try and train my dogs now. I use to do it the wrong way until I started watching the Dog whisperer and he does it the same way. Bewteewn this site and that show I learn more and more everyday. Thanks for the Great post!

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

Both actually, I'm working with him in the front yard, and walking him on the road that goes in front of our house.

Words don’t need to be spoken, they are more for the “human” than the dogs. Dog’s have the ability and senses too tell if we are happy, sad, frightened, anxious, etc.
I understand that, but I also like to make sure he "knows" his name since he only recently was given one in the last 2 months. I also think that him hearning the calming tone of my voice helps calm him as well. I generally do associate becoming "alpha" with dominance, which at this point he couldn't be more submissive, hence the problem I was having on understanding how to establish the role.


That’s because they know how to communicate with him. You seem to be cowering and trying to “sneak” up on him. Which is not something any alpha dog would do. Am I saying charge him, no. But you should approach in a confidant manner, that is none threatening. You are making a bigger issue out of it that it needs too be.
Another point taken. I don't approach him in a "sneaky" way by any means. I walk directly up to him, usually check his water/food, speaking to him, and observing his "mood". After that I start to work with him, begining with standing up and calling for him, which at this point he is cowering as far from me as possible, trying to put him at ease I will generally sit on his barrel. Sometimes this works, sometimes not. If it doesn't work I will walk to him, pet and encourage him, and gently lift his head and upperbody up so he is sitting instead of laying down. After a little of this I then put him on the lead and we take a walk, which I try to keep his head up and focus in front of us, instead of back toward the dogs.


The choke chain is only a training aid, not a torture devise (control the nose, you control 80% of the dog).
We are obviously not going to agree on this one. I have used a choke chain on a limited basis in the past, but always had much better results with positive re-enforcement. I understand the concept of staying calm, yet assertive when training any dog, but I also understand that a choke chain is NOT the best method in certain cases.


Why is he given that much of the leash? If he is given 4 foot of leash, you have no control over him, and he is doing whatever he decides, instead of what you tell him.
Another good point, I have been a little lax in that area, but yesterday paid very close attention when I was working with him, and will continue to do so.\


You shouldn’t be trying to calm him down, instead redirect his energy and let your body language, calm him (words don’t need to be spoken) down.
Redirect his energy? Ok, again how? I haven't found a way to get his focus as of yet, and even with the close leash walking he is extremely unconfident and nervous., there are no warning signs to watch for, he is consistantly nervous and scared.

He won’t “go over the deep end”. Right now you are allowing the dog too control you, instead of you controlling the dog. If you continue to give him praise when he is unstable, you will never help him, but make him worse.
Now, you do understand that he has fear aggression tendancy right? I'm not scared of getting bit by him, but I'm not stupid enough to "back him in a corner" where he feels so threatened he will "defend" himself either. That's what I was trying to get across in my last post. I'm not scared of him, by any means, but I'm also not going to push his fear when I'm trying to help him over come it.

Then you shouldn’t be taking on this task, you’ll only eventually make him worse. Every time you pick up a leash, you should, all ready have visualized the outcome. If you’re fearful of getting bit, it will happen. As long as you’re hesitant, the dog will never follow you willingly!
See above. I am not hesitant when I work with him, as it may seem from my previous post, but I going to use my head and use methods that won't put myself or him in a position where a bite may occur, hence all the questions.


That won’t happen until you have the confidence too make it happen. You say you “want” to gain the alpha role, just you’re hesitant and fearful of getting bit. Which that mindset will never allow you to reach your goal. Nobody follows a timid individual, be it man or animal!
My confidence isn't lacking, his is.


Because dogs, know how to communicate and treat other dogs. We “humans” try to treat them like they are “kids”. With “kids” they need comfort and reassurance when frightened, scared, insecure, etc. But if we do that with dogs, we only create more problems.
Normally I would agree with you, but in this case I really feel his DOES need reassurance, encouragement, as well as disiciple to over come his fears.


You asking him too face and overcome his fears, while willingly following you. Yet, you have yet to face your own fears. Doesn’t make much since, does it?
Of course that statement make sence, but that isn't the case here. If I didn't have the confidence in him to at least try he would already be PTS for the fear aggression he has already shown.


It’s basically the same thing the other dog (new pup) is exhibiting. Just the new pup hasn’t bonded with you any. You are not the leader, you are basically their roommate (in their mind).
It is NOTHING like what the new pup (10 month old) is exhibiting, NOTHING. This pup is showing fear aggression, my male is dog aggressive.


Again, you praising and nurturing an unstable mind. If you are telling him it’s ok of him to behave that way, why shouldn’t he?
Unstable mind? LMAO Believe me I'm not telling him its ok, in fact we no longer take him to shows because of dog aggression issues.


Being a calm “roommate” doesn’t really matter. Until you gain the alpha role, you’ll never have control over any dog!
Again, this dog is under control, with the exception of ADBA dog shows, where he shows his serious dog aggression issues off. But I do agree with your statement.


It’s not “multiple personalities”, it is simply at home the two of you are in ya’ll comfort zone. Once arriving at the show, he is picking up on the energy vibe that is there (much like you new pup with kids). Being he has no “pack leader”, he believes he has to “protect” his pack (you and your family).
What? He doesn't have aggressive issues with PEOPLE, only with dogs and given the breed of dog he is I understand it. I can understand the energy vibe is higher, so its likely that is what works him up more, but he is by no means "protecting" us from people or dogs. He is extremely well trained, and I am the alpha with him and there is no doubt on that issue. He has dog aggressive tendancy and its part of his makeup which I understand and when at a show he gets overly excited at all the other dogs around him barking and carrying on.


Sounds like you do have other problems with the other dogs, just his are more sever.
No, I don't. I don't look at dog aggression problems in an APBT a problem, but more of a fact of life. To be under control, but not taken away. Sorry but you hit a nerve with this one since you have no idea how my dogs are, other than a story on one difficult situation, and a brief discription on another one of my dogs (which by no means is the complete story on him..lol)


I’ve all ready told you….exercise, discipline, and then affection. You give them “exercise” to take the edge off them, “discipline” is to give them guidance and let them know you’re in control, and once they are in a calm, submissive state of mind you show/give affection.
You do understand that he is in a constant submissive state? I honestly feel that until I earn his TRUST I will get no where with him.


I actually wish some of the people who PM'd me in private would add their thoughts to this situation. I've recieved some excellent advice there as well. This has been extremely informative, and I really appreciate the time you took to answer by questions and help me out.

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

I am currently going through obedience training with one of my dogs now. Tex has very good points and is very knowledgeable on the subject and seems to have covered mostly everything. Let me tell you what I have done with one of my females and maybe it could help your situation.

I was having a possesion/food aggression problem with one of my females, which was due to my lack of leadership and not being the alpha in the situation. First and foremost is gaining of trust. I would spend time with the dog in a private room away from the other animals and get him to gain trust in you, let him feel secure with his back to you. Walking around him behind his back while petting him on his head, letting him sniff you, etc. Dont force the attention from him and dont sneak up on him to try to get close. Just have a secure approach because he will read your energy. Dont be too excited but be up with him.

What I did to gain that alpha role with my pup was to start spending time with her with a "correction collar" (choker). Before every training session I would collect her thoughts, by this I mean I would make her pay attention to me and nothing else. The way I do this is by letting total slack in the leash and CC and let her wander out until she just about gets to the end of the leash and I pull it with a quick snap at the same time of a stern NO and step back and tell her come around here with me (I give her praise when she does), I will then repeat this until she begins to follow my movements. If I walk back she comes with me etc. no more straying and I get total focus. This is the start of it....This takes time and sessions should not be very long and when she isnt in training she is in her kennel (crate) and eats in there as well.

I would try this a few x to see how it works out with your dog just to gain focus before you start any trainig because if the dog is not not focused on you... it will be much more difficult. My female has a long way to go but she is much improved I control the food/possesions and havent had a problem since I started this. She goes in her crate on command stays back from doorways until I tell her it's ok to go through (after me, of coarse) and seems to be a happier and more well rounded pup (she's a yr). Hope it helps to start off with. Peoples opinions may differ but i have had luck with my dog this way and she seems to be better off for it.

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

This is actually what my main focus is at this point. I truely believe I cannot move on to establishing the "alpha" role until I gain his trust. My biggest problem has been to try and let him come to me, which at this point rarely happens, and not force myself on him in his current state of fear. Rocksteady summed it up great on his issues in the establishing "alpha" role.. post. Once I gain his trust, I think he will progress rapidly. At this point the lead work you've done will not work simply because he is terrified of any loud spoken commands and responds in kind, but I will try it once he trusts me not to hurt him.

I'm really glad this post was started up again because I've gotten so much helpful information and been able to get alot of my questions answered. I've never had a dog so unsocialized with people, never and this has been a new experience because my normal methods of working with a dog are not affective.

Thanks again everyone, this is great information, and feedback!

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

i know someone who you can call to possibly help you out with the trust issue. Pm me if you like!

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

“I understand that, but I also like to make sure he "knows" his name since he only recently was given one in the last 2 months.”
That’s the problem…you’re trying too run, before learning how to walk! The “name” is only for you, dog’s don’t communicate with words. The dog needs to have a stable, calm, submissive mind, before you start attempting to give him names, obedience training, etc.

“I also think that him hearning the calming tone of my voice helps calm him as well.”
That’s one of your major problems! All your words are doing is, making you feel better and telling your dog, that state of mind is ok to be in.

“If it doesn't work I will walk to him, pet and encourage him, and gently lift his head and upperbody up so he is sitting instead of laying down.”
It will never work, you consistently keep nurturing an unstable mind.

“ I understand the concept of staying calm, yet assertive when training any dog, but I also understand that a choke chain is NOT the best method in certain cases.”
How can you “understand” that, with only limited experience using one? A collar is useless when training are wanting control over you dogs. They are used to have resistance on it, being their chain pulls on it throughout the day. Plus it is positioned way to far down on the neck, to give you any control.

“I haven't found a way to get his focus as of yet, and even with the close leash walking he is extremely unconfident and nervous., there are no warning signs to watch for, he is consistantly nervous and scared.”
Because you are consistently nurturing his unstable mind. Which will always prevent you from making progress.

“Now, you do understand that he has fear aggression tendancy right?”
Yes, fully aware of that.

“I'm not scared of him, by any means, but I'm also not going to push his fear when I'm trying to help him over come it.”
That’s good you’re not scared of being bit, but you have too also understand, you’re encouraging his “fears”.

“but I going to use my head and use methods that won't put myself or him in a position where a bite may occur”
You shouldn’t put yourself in a position to get bit, but it sounds like you are doing just that. You are not the “alpha” and you keep nurturing his fears. Which inevitably will make him become much more unstable and fearful. You continue using “training” methods more suited for a “human” than a canine.

“but in this case I really feel his DOES need reassurance, encouragement, as well as disiciple to over come his fears.”
Then maybe it’s time for your “feelings” to change. What you’re doing is the exact opposite of what needs too be done.

“If I didn't have the confidence in him to at least try he would already be PTS for the fear aggression he has already shown.”
Ok, maybe you have the confidence, but you don’t seem too have the knowledge to help this dog. It’s a shame too, it is something that can easily be corrected. But like normal, the dog will end up being put to sleep, because “humans” screwed him up mentally.

“Believe me I'm not telling him its ok”
Giving/offering a treat, is telling him its ok!

“in fact we no longer take him to shows because of dog aggression issues.”
Oh I see, instead of correcting the problem, you just avoid the situations all together?

“Again, this dog is under control, with the exception of ADBA dog shows, where he shows his serious dog aggression issues off.”
If he was truly “under control”, you’d be able to take him anywhere and maintain your control.

“ He is extremely well trained, and I am the alpha with him and there is no doubt on that issue.”
He doesn’t sound “extremely well trained” or are definitions are vastly different. If you was in control and truly the “alpha” he, wouldn’t feel the need to act out. The “alpha” role doesn’t change because of location! Just because they are “pit bulls” don’t mean they shouldn’t be under control! Too many people try to make excuses for their dogs misbehavior (indurate much like their kids) and blame it on their “genetics”. When it is just they are not properly trained. Having a well trained dog…won’t make it a “cur, won’t make it any less of a bulldog, etc. It only makes it a more enjoyable companion, that is able to go anywhere with you. Way too many bulldogs are left to rot away on their “chains” until they reach the 18 month - 2 year age range.

“He has dog aggressive tendancy and its part of his makeup which I understand and when at a show he gets overly excited at all the other dogs around him barking and carrying on.”
Yes they do, but that should never involve you making excuses for their lack of discipline. While on a leash, you should be in control. If not, it just make it a “pain” too take them anywhere….just like you don’t now.

“I don't look at dog aggression problems in an APBT a problem”
If they are on a leash, you should.

“You do understand that he is in a constant submissive state?”
Yes. But you don’t seem too understand, you are keeping him in that state.

“I honestly feel that until I earn his TRUST I will get no where with him.”
Canines aren’t “humans” they don’t need love and affection, from the “alpha” before they follow them. Canines only follow, trust, obey, etc….the PACK LEADER. Until you become that, you’ll never have his “trust”.

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

LR, i think what TEX is saying is when you first approach this dog and he is cowering, and you speak calmly to him and pet him, that is his "reward" for shrinking and cowering......i dont think you should speak to him or touch him at all, try just walking up to him all business, snap the collar on (or leash) and start walking, walk him close to you and walk only where you want, do not speak nor look at him when you do this, after the walking session and when you return him to his spot AFTER you replace his chain, then look at him, and pet him and give him a "good boy" but thats it until the next session......see what im saying? you will be teaching him that the cowering is unacceptable, that you are the boss and say where he will go, and that you will pay no attention to him until he does what you want.



after reading all the posts on this dog, and reading all tex's posts this is how i would handle this dog.....

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

Welll I have an update... a very good update as a matter of fact!

After moving him out of the site of the other dogs, and going with my approach on saying his name, and giving him a little affection as I approach him, yesterday he ran half the distance away from me as usual and waited from my approach, and today he didn't move away but waited until I approached then once I was moving toward the end of his area, he followed and sat by my side! This is a HUGE step for him!! I'm starting to finally make a little progress!! He is walking much better on the lead, now that I am keeping him at my side, and is wagging his tail when he hears my voice!

I'm very encouraged, and plan on working with him alot more this weekend. He is still doing some cowering but not nearly as much as before, I think he is finally begining to understand that I won't hurt him. He is actually starting to focus on me, and not shifting his eyes as I approach him even 3/4 as much. This is absolutely huge!

I really appreciate all the advice, and Tex I have been listening and its helped a bunch. I haven't agreed with everything you said, but I have been trying to incorporate alot of it in what I'm doing with this male. Again thanks so much everyone!!

 

Re: Continuation of post "LadyRampage" started.

Awesome news LR!!! Please keep us posted. It sounds like you have made a great breakthrough with him.