Gameness in you?

I agree you have to let them mature. I look at myself when I was a teenager 20 yrs ago I would beet the dog shit out of my teenage self lol.

 

"Matches aren't about fighting to the death. It is to determine the better fighter"................ I think folks forget this and get wraped up in "gameness" and the alore of it. there dogs its a game lets not forget and make more out of it then it realy is.

 

Actually that is not quite accurate either BB LOL A Matches goal or objective is to determine a WINNER and a LOSER in the most fairest way possible. The misconception is that most newbies think that the main goal/objective of match/show is to prove ones gameness which is not entirely accurate. Everything else like gameness or who was the better fighter etc. is all secondary opinions that do not effect the goal or objective out come of the match/show of determining a winner and a loser.

But then again what do I know as I am only a basement dweller claimed by some members on here. LMAOROTF

 

the type of post and style of writing is nothing to apologize for,,,
I enjoy the length in your post as there is great depth in your understanding,,, thanks...

I dont think you have ever wasted anybodies time,,,
students,,, peers or elders all can value your thoughts...

I agree with your post and enjoy everyone else also...

I was told the first thirty should be a collision of stregth,,, mouth and ability,,,
the next thirty should be exposing weakness and holes in styles and those who find the right openings and spots usually pull ahead the next thirty depending if the first isnt catching up with them...

and as they say it becomes a scratching contest,,,
at least the classics!!!

 

Agreed. After 30 minutes of tough combat the dogs will typically be below pit weight, and if a dog was brought in light, they lose mouth. (Hence, why they say better a pound over than under) The level of conditioning is also revealed. The quality of conditioning is also shown by how well a dog recovers. Some used to overwork their dogs, and this also caused the dogs to weaken faster.

I heard the Eli dogs were known for finishing many dogs in the first thirty minutes, and it took a dog with good skill or that had he power to withstand the onslaught. If a dog could use good defensive skills, then after thirty minutes the match leveled out and the barnstorming dogs lose the power they started with.

More than gameness, old timers said the most deciding factor in a match was the keep, and most important part of the keep was the feed. Hence, why most keep their feed secret, even today.

As for those who believe in breeding for Gameness first, again, without mouth and ability all you have is a glorified roll dog. I'll take a dog with mouth and ability over a dead game dog without. Not to say Gameness isn't important; just that Gameness alone can't always win it.

True gamedogs are like firecrackers, as Joe Corvino used to put it. They are head to head, toe to toe, and will be where the action is.
Those who have experience in the dogs can tell pretty accurately whether a dog is game or not in the first ten minutes.
While the typical characteristics of a game dog may not be 100% accurate, it doesn't matter so much when you have a dog with mouth and ability.

Now, a game dog without ability or mouth may be used to breed, to add the Gameness, while also making a good schooling dog.
They will give up and coming dogs a taste of a dog that won't quit. So they do have some value.

In topics like this everyone has their own philosophy, and there are no right or wrong ones.
I've yet to meet a dogman who never lost and won them all. Never known a breeder who never had to cull. In fact, I've known of some who culled dogs better than many owners will ever have. (I may not have agreed, but they saw something they didn't like and that was that.)

Recently I've been seeing some people elsewhere bragging they have a game pup. I simply said anyone who makes that claim on a pup is a liar and peddler.
Pups cannot be tested, and some dogs take awhile to turn on. By forcing them too soon, they destroy a future the dog may have had.
Too many today confuse prey drive with gameness. IMO prey drive/aggression is the ticket to the dance. Gameness is the quality that allows a dog to make it to the end dance, along with skill and mouth.
Recently saw a video from some foreign country, and they were using a wolf pup muzzled to train a seven month old pit dog. They then boasted the dog was game.
What nonsense! Not only does it do nothing to help a dog, but it will give them bad habits, as well as lead them to believe all matches will be so easy.
When they finally get their chance against a truly schooled pit dog, it will be like meeting a freight train full blast.
Only novices and media educated scumbags would do this.
To school a dog is to go slow and by degrees, into opposition. Can't sharpen a knife without a rough stone!

Gameness levels are not all equal in a litter. This is why it is necessary to keep a whole litter and evaluate each dog, to select the best ones for breeding.

Lastly, I've seen elsewhere some punks who think they can make a dog game.
That is Bs. It is born with it, or it will never have it!
You cannot ask a dog to do more than it is capable of. Each dog has its own maximum stress point and you cannot increase it.
You must discover it to know the limits.....and proceed accordingly.

 

Personally I think they will all quit with the right tonic! I know this is A touchy subject and a lot don't agree! Heat and Health problems are what stop most deep game dogs one of the gamest dogs I've seen scratch was in shock! I seriously doubt 10-15 min. latter he would of! But we will never know the opponent through in the towel, because his to was in shock and he wanted to save him! Both were attended to properly and saved! I personally saw A dog stand the line in less than 20 min. with no apparent damage the dog was borrowed from Jim S. his words were this dog is worth A 4-6 hundred match don't roll him just match him and let G. Hopkins help the green horn get him in shape just trying to do A newbie A solid, he couldn't follow instructions and he was out! Jim S. just to prove A point matched the same two dogs into each other and won in around an hour thirty! Sometimes I think weak handlers just don't make the connection. People say some protection dogs can sense fear! So it is with combat dogs! I know my limitations after several serious injuries I would never handle! After a lot of years mistakes and successes, I know I can get almost any dog in top shape, but the handler has to be there every step of the way! I haven't been able to do this though since 1976!! One thing a lot of OLD Timers drilled into me was KNOW your dogs STRENGTS and WEAKNESS don't leave him in there any longer than necessary book that win and get out! 99% can only make that race so many times, some more than others! Another reason HEALTH was hammered into me when I was young! Heat from A missed keep, and oxygen ciculation from an unhealty dog will surface quick! Just A little something I'll share take it or leave it makes no difference to me! Good Luck

 

Good post.

As for gameness, Joe Corvino used to say, "Any dog can be made to quit, so don't be surprised if they do, be surprised when they stay."
I quote this a lot, because as time goes by I see deeper into what he meant.
Very few dogs will actually take their death in the pit. My belief is, one can't think about the money so much as to blind you to what is happening.
A dog that is losing but not quitting deserves to be respected, IMO. I'm close with my dogs, and would never let pride blind me to reality (if it were the old days, that is, just saying).
Maurice Carver once said, "this dog is willing to take its death for me, so you can be damn sure I'm gonna be his friend!" I believe that 100%.
Too many guys today, this you get generation, mostly thugs, have no love or care for their dogs. To them they are mere tools.

As for Jeep. I know a guy who was buddies with Crenshaw...once a fight got raided in Texas years ago, and those two sat on a gravel road all night and talked.
I asked him about Jeep, as I always hear nothing but good about him.
He told me Crenshaw didn't care much for Jeep. (His book even says it in there).
To them, Jeep was a better producer than performer. He was an average dog, but game.
My friend also said Jeep would have never been known to the world had he faced GR CH Agnus. Twice they were scheduled, and both times Agnus' sister Rose (if I remember the name right) got loose and they had to cancel.
Only bad thing I heard of Agnus was he was a manbiter.
Who knows, it was just his opinion. Ch Otis faced Agnus and was counted out.
I heard he faced Homer too, who some say pulled him back in the pit, thus making his gameness questionable.

I don't hold history as a gospel, or mention things I heard from witnesses as flawless.
Rather, I take it with a grain of salt and use this knowledge to understand that many other factors play into the total story.
When Homer faced Jeep I heard he only had two weeks of conditioning and was underweight.
It took three hours for Jeep to beat him. What if he had been conditioned properly? Would it have been different?

These are just a few things that show me it takes more than just the dog, more than just gameness to win.

 

Lol..... :lol:

 

some of those country folk that work their dogs have some of the best culling practices and ideology that tells a good story in a simple quote of truth,,, thanks for the share as I really enjoyed reading it...

 

No he had done stopped a couple was fixing to match him my self it was his last test

 

wow good post,,,
makes me think these bulldogs are more super natural than we think...