Matrix Kennels

I'm relatively new to game dogs. I've been researching pit bulls for almost two years now, and I'll recognize the famous game dogs and names, but I wouldn't consider myself well educated yet on game dogs in general. I started out a few years ago just searching general pit bull information, then starting looking at strictly show kennels, then at show AND working kennels as well as rescue, and now I'm starting to educate myself on game lines. I'm trying to educate myself the best that I can before I get a pit bull (probably in a few more years when I have a stable lifestyle). In all honesty, I'll most likely get a rescue dog and do mostly rescue work, but who knows.

Wanted to see what you thought of Matrix Kennels (matrixkennels.com). It's definitely NOT a game kennel, but the dogs are fantastic IMO and they are the most responsible breeders I've ever seen. If I were to get a well bred dog rather than a rescue, I'd opt for one of theirs even over a good game dog simply because most game breeders that I've come across breed much to frequently for my liking. I've attached a pic of one of the females they've produced who is phenominal. She's done very well in show (both UKC and ADBA I believe) as well as weight pull.

 

I have been to thier site and look around awhile back and they do have some nice looking dogs. Thier web site is nicely built if you have the time to look around.

 

Beautiful show dogs... I guess I would choose them over say York Kennels if I went the show dog route and wanted the Am staff type dog ..

But there are also kennels who bred both game and show dogs and dont breed that much.

the biggest thing I'd worry about is their contract while they come across as fanatical about certain things ( nice to see breeders doing this) you have to wonder and worry are they the kind of breeders that would rush in and take back a pup or dog because they didnt like something you did?? ( I do know people like that) Take for instance this clause " The breeder reserves the right to inquire about and inspect the dogs housing and quarters at any given (reasonable) time. If the breeder finds the dog in an unsanitary and/or in poor health condition, the breeder has the right to take the dog back from the owner with no compensation to the owner" I would demand a clear meaning of what they expect

I'm also not a fan of their registry policy .. I think you if campaign a dog YOU paid for, own legally, have feed, conditioned, paid for vet bills and the dog has met all requirements of theirs, you should be able to registr its offspring wherever you like. The offspring of that dog is NOT theirs..its yours

Oh well..

 

Matrix has some very nice looking dogs...rocksteady they're not Am Staff type dogs...they're pure APBT who aren't game.

EDIT: They're APBT's who aren't BRED for game.

 

I agree houston and theres no problems on that comment. Great looking dogs and from what I've seen dont seem to be amstaffs....Rocksteady your absolutely right some breeders seem a little over protective and in this case it seems they're trying to get the dog back and keep the money giving them rights to sell it again. After the dog is in your hands and paid for it is yours as long as it is properly taken care of in a healthy environment.

 

I actually agree with the amstaff type dog comment.. The gamer lines tend to not be the shorter stockier AKC/UKC dogs looking dogs. Mind you I'm saying in looks and not in actually bloodlines per say. They have beautiful dogs, great titles and mostly great contracts on selling BUT I agree with the comment about "seems they're trying to get the dog back and keep the money giving them rights to sell it again. After the dog is in your hands and paid for it is yours as long as it is properly taken care of in a healthy environment." I think that is 100% correct. Its a little overkill IMO.

Hate to say it but sometimes those kennels that have such extensive contracts seem to be the ones doing to most breeding and sales...

 

oh..there is some Am Staff in there
Take MAtrix's Dog trinity

This is a dog in her pedigree.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=5346

Click on the female PR martins Pit Patty..

Anyhow.. most people beleive that a non game "version" of the APBt is the AM staff.. and I am too going by looks.. they look like Am staffs regardless of what the pedigree says (besides, an AKC dog can be registered as an UKC APBT)

 

I expected more negative comments...nice surprise!

Actually, the guy who runs the kennel is honest to God the "dogman" that I most respect. He is definitely NOT in this for the money. You all noticed how many titles all of his dogs have, which obviously costs quite a bit of money. His puppies are priced VERY reasonably ($600-1000, depending on quality) and if you get one of his pups titled, he will pay you for it. Honestly, I'm really happy to see him being so strict with his line. It's his baby. He doesn't want his puppies to be bred willy nilly and there are quite a few scumbag registering bodies out there (won't mention any names). His dogs are UKC registered and some are also ADBA, and to be quite honest, I don't see why you would want to be registered with any other organization. I see his strict contract as VERY responsible rather than too strict...imagine if everyone cared this much about their dogs. We wouldn't ever be in the mess that we're in right now.

They've been in existance for five or six years and have bred four litters in that time. That's one of the reasons I'm such a big fan of theirs...they aren't out there peddling puppies and adding to the overpopulation problem.

As far as looking Amstaffy, I couldn't disagree more, but I suppose when your used to looking at game dogs they do seem a bit overdone. Really, if they were heavily conditioned, they'd look like the ADBA champs we all see so often. It's really a matter of conditioning, not structure, so I don't have an issue with it. I guess I don't really understand all of the hubbub with APBTs supposedly looking Amstaffy. They are the same breed, only bred for different looks. Why does it matter if a DUAL REGISTERED (read, also an APBT!) dog is in an APBT pedigree? As long as they don't start having the overdone, way unbalanced look of Amstaffs, I could care less. A good pit bull is a good pit bull.

Thanks for the replies, and did you take a look at Persephone? Is she not one of the most b-e-a-u-tiful dogs you've ever seen?!?! I love that gal...

 

If you believe the only difference between Amstaffs & Bulldogs is appearance I suggest you do a lot more research. Do you know why most working dog kennels do more breedings? bc they care enough for the breed to better it. If their dogs don't work out they are culled. They use what they breed. If your showing your dogs that's wonderful, but you are able to refine physical appearance in fewer breedings than ability & gameness. I am in no way downing on show dogs or pull dogs they help this breed more than most will ever understand. But there is no comparison.

 

I was speaking from an appearance standpoint...everybody said they "look Amstaffy"...so that's where I went with it. I know Amstaff's have been bred primarily for show and APBTs are generally more game/better at working, which is why I am way more into APBT's. Working is the heart of this breed and I'd never say "great dog" to a pretty show dog who didn't prove him or herself elsewhere. (I must add though, that there are some working Amstaffs...check out Hartagold Amstaffs...I'll also post a pic of Grant, one of her offspring (was unfortunately neutered because both testicals didn't descend, and I say unfortunately because he's a GREAT dog...conformation wise he's near perfect and he's got an excellant temperament and he's doing quite well in Schutzhund).

Quite honestly, kennels (either working or show) breed more to make more money. There's not much you can do to convince me otherwise. Why do we need twenty or two hundred good working dogs from the same lines? Isn't that where we get into inbreeding problems? And there are definitely not enough responsible owners to home all of those pups. Absolutely breed enough to keep that line alive and well, but seriously, there are very few kennels out there with as angelic intentions as you mentioned. This is probably a point where I and most of you will just have to agree to disagree. I am very tough when it comes to what I consider an acceptable breeding...doing repeat breedings is not really all that acceptable in my book (unless the one or two good bulldogs of the initial litter were somehow comprimised).

 

No..line breeding and inbreeding when done right is a way to preserve certain traits and only the very best of dogs should be used.


The problem lies with not culling the dogs that arent fit to be bred. the problem lies with breeders who are breeding for a certain look or color or size or breeding solely based on name only

And yes..isnt it a good thing to have a line with loads of champions?? It doesnt mean one has to get out and breed each CH or Gr CH they get. Not every dog that gets a CH title really deserved it..in meaning espeically with the AKC and UKC shows, a young dog / pup that obtains its CH at a early age isnt done growing therefore as an adult it might not fit the breed standard anymore or deveople other issues that come with maturity.

I too was stating that those dogs look like am Staffs and fit that standard better ..and if thats what you like, theres nothing wrong at least they are proving their dogs in the show ring and going above and beyond what many breeders do by obtaining tests, etc.

I have spoken with Laura from heartagold many times before. She also raises Staffordshire Bull Terriers and they compete mostly in agility.

I find many AKC and UKC show breeders to be upitiy and stuck on themselves (esepically in the AKC relm) Its also been proven throughout many breeds that they lose something once they are strickly bred for the show ring (the poodle, cocker spaniel, even the Golden Retriever )


now. to the comment about non game apbts There is only 2 words that come to mind. Cur or Am Staff

 

I guess my question to you would be if you can describe to me, exactly what features you see in these dogs make them look more like Amstaffs than APBTs. They fit the UKC APBT standard to a T...so I wonder why you think they look like Amstaffs. Like I said before, I think it's because your used to seeing the gamebred TYPE of APBT, but I could be wrong.

I'll be the first one to support good line breeding (I'm well aware of it's benefits) and believe me, I am well aware that there are plenty of Chs and Gr Chs even that don't deserve their titles. Really, if you take your dog to enough shows, it will get titled eventually. For those that do deserve their titles, yes, it's a great thing to have a line with loads of champions, but that doesn't mean that that particular line needs to be bred like there is no tomorrow.

I'll also be the first to tell you that dogs should not be strictly bred for show...but I think there should be a semi similar rule for just working dogs too. If you breed a dog who only has the heart to work, it's better than just breeding a pretty dog, but I think both conformation and working should go into breeding (do we agree on that?), and that's I suppose another reason I'm not a huge fan of game only lines (yet?). I've seen horrible game dogs being bred (horrible conformation wise) and that irritates me probably the same amount that a heartless but pretty show dog being bred irritates you. I only support breeding dogs with the total package, and only then when done infrequently. There are just WAY to many homeless pit bulls and way to FEW responsible homes to breed as frequently as many breeders do.

I think we're pretty much agreeing on everything besides that you don't believe in breeding non-game dogs and I don't believe in breeding as frequently, so I guess this post is just to clarify that I'm not a total newbie and I do know whats going on. (I suppose that's my responsibility being a new member of this particular forum). Again, agreeing to disagree here.

 

As for breeding.. Not every CH or GR CH is going to produce a BETTER dog than itself, or even a dog that is comparable to itself. People tend to think because they have this "perfect" dog that its going to produce another "perfect" dog and that is just not always the case. When breeding you have to look at both sire and dam and see what you HOPE that each will bring to the table in order to get that "perfect" dog. The sire may have one flaw, but the dam is strong in that area and vice versa.. Your hoping to pull one trait from the other to get a more complete package.. I know this is going off on a slightly different topic but I wanted to address the comment
"I've seen horrible game dogs being bred (horrible conformation wise)" which can be true when your inbred, linebreeding to get that complete package from your line of dogs. There needs to be a clear goal in mind. Confirmation, working abilities, temperament, among other things ALL should be considered.

Now, I don't have a problem with AmStaff type dogs, not my preference, but I don't have a problem. What I do have a problem with is the many AmStaff type dogs that I see splashed all over the internet being advertised because of their color or the size of their heads..LOL That is what I have come to associate the AmStaff type dogs with. I hear/see alot of problems with temperament with many of these types of dogs, but damn if they don't have a "cool" color, or a 30" head.. Ok, just a little venting, but it gets annoying as many of you problably know. In all I'm sure that Matrix Kennels do right by there dogs, title them and take careful steps before breeding to ensure that they are producing better dogs..

I agree that there are ALOT of kennels, both working and show, that are breeding just to make a buck, but there are kennels out there that are actually breeding to BETTER the line of dogs they currently have. They have an actually plan and don't sell or rarely sell any off those breeding.

As for "And there are definitely not enough responsible owners to home all of those pups." Culling can mean anything from finding a new home to having it PTS.

 

I have to agree with RockSteady on this:


"the biggest thing I'd worry about is their contract while they come across as fanatical about certain things ( nice to see breeders doing this) you have to wonder and worry are they the kind of breeders that would rush in and take back a pup or dog because they didnt like something you did?? ( I do know people like that) Take for instance this clause " The breeder reserves the right to inquire about and inspect the dogs housing and quarters at any given (reasonable) time. If the breeder finds the dog in an unsanitary and/or in poor health condition, the breeder has the right to take the dog back from the owner with no compensation to the owner" I would demand a clear meaning of what they expect

I'm also not a fan of their registry policy .. I think you if campaign a dog YOU paid for, own legally, have feed, conditioned, paid for vet bills and the dog has met all requirements of theirs, you should be able to registr its offspring wherever you like. The offspring of that dog is NOT theirs..its yours "

This is WAY over the line IMHO...
This is the USA that we live in and those kind of control issues are what has gotten the APBT and other dogs labled and put put on the chopping block so to speak.
I am sorry, they might be nice people on the surface, but I cannot ever condone this kind of forceful control over someone elses life.

 

SFK YOU TOOK THE WORDS OUT OF MY MOUTH!!

 

"This is the USA that we live in and those kind of control issues are what has gotten the APBT and other dogs labled and put put on the chopping block so to speak."

I COMPLETELY disagree. Poor breeding has gotten our breed put on the chopping block, and with a clause like this, none of his dogs will fall victim down the line to this. How is being perhaps over responsible with your dogs damaging the breed? I think I speak for many when I say that I've seen several pit bull owners who should not have pit bulls, let alone ANY type of pet. We need stricter ideals, not more leniancy. I suppose I'm going to have to name names to make that little clause issue made clear. They don't want their dogs being registered with scum bag paper hanging registries like the CKC or AAPBA that allow PUPPIES to pull (I mean months old puppies).

As far as overdone dogs, I think we're just having a disagreement in terms here. You call the Gotti type freakshows "Amstaffs" and I call them freak shows. They AREN'T Amstaffs any more than they are APBTs. They are mastiff mixed freak shows. I guess I allow a little more substance than ya'll prefer...which we've all said is fine.

LR- Your first paragraph is exactly the reason that I'm so strict when it comes to what I require in breeding. I think if you look at the dogs that Matrix has, then look at it's offspring, they are definitely improving. (They went from Lil to Persephone...that's a MAJOR improvement even from Lil, who I consider to be a pretty dang good dog). And they aren't breeding hundreds of times to get there...Scot (the owner of Matrix Kennels) has a Ph.D. in some field of genetics, so he knows (and from him and my own knowledge, I know) the gamble that breeding can be, but also all the things you need to do to up your chances of it being successful.

" 'I've seen horrible game dogs being bred (horrible conformation wise)' which can be true when your inbred, linebreeding to get that complete package from your line of dogs. There needs to be a clear goal in mind. Confirmation, working abilities, temperament, among other things ALL should be considered." I guess I'm a little confused by this. Your last sentence is what I've been saying all along, but if all IS considered, these game dogs with horrible rears and fronts, for example, wouldn't be bred. (Esp. when there are other game dogs who ARE sound conformation wise).

Let me just add how much I'm appreciating this debate. So often people get so heated and caught up in their own opinions that debates turn into fights and end up getting nothing accomplished, other than pissing a few people off. Looks like everyone here, while opinionated, has been able to add to the debate without fighting.

 

Damn, I have never seen a thread stay on topic so long. I agree with J, GOOD DEBATE!!!!


Now someone call someone else a shithead!!!

 

I agree with Zombie, good debate. Lol, Zombie, you're a shithead.

 

interesting topic.

I tend to favor the breeding that focuses on ability, I do not agree with pure "show" at all, I dont mind show breeders who are smart about it still and breed for other things with the "show"

Breeders who breed for only one thing (Looks) are horrible, look at what has been done to so many breeds once they get their hands on them, the english bulldog??? tell me that thing could work. One of my other favorite dogs...the bullmastiff has become a fat non-working dog with genetic problems.

The Pitbull is one of the heartiest, heathiest breeds in the world, this is due to the fact that there is still so many people who breed with the "working" only mentality.

Personally I find alot of Game bred pitbulls to look amazing. I like dogs to be muscular but not overly bulky, I cant stand the oversized heads and being so low to the ground, it makes the dogs look like fat midgets instead of athletes.

I do agree with one thing you said, I think alot of dogs shouldnt be bred too often, all pitbulls need homes including those in shelters. I also would love to see a perfect "looking" pitbull thats been bred for its "working" ability as well. I just think that the problem lies with competition in the sport, it would take far longer to create the "complete package" than to focus on select traits and it comes down to what is more important at the time, the nice looking gamedog that goes 1-2 or the Gr champion gamedogs that keep on winning? The fact that not all great dogs can produce great dogs makes the "complete" dog that much harder to breed for even once you have a few examples

 

IKC lumps both the Am sTaff and the APBT together ..so you're going to tell me that since a dog is an am staff but its registeed in the UKC its officially an APBT??
Now..why was the Am Staff created??? So people could have a show dog that was uniform in conformation and less aggressive towards other dogs.

What is Matrix kennels doing?? Breeding dogs that are uniform in conformation and that are less aggressive. They are breeding their own modern day Am Staffs..regardless of their registration papers or their lines


The definition of an APBT is gameness.. without it you do not have the APBT but a lab or Am staff. It is the lack of gameness , lack of being able to test for etc that has caused the demise of the breed..(game dogs usually have sound temperment,s healthy as far as hips, etc goes since a good working dog needs to have a sound body)

It wasnt until the advent of these show dogs that all this testing needed to come about .. and if you look at any top breed of dog once people start breeding for the ring the dog looses its working ablities, developed health issues..

And many working dogs game wise do have substance..look at catchdogs. Not all game bred dogs look like skinny greyhounds. Take Ironline's dogs for example. Lots of meat there,,and even being good working APBTs they've has success in the show ring.