Matrix Kennels

lol, I made a post a few days ago about that exact same thing Rocksteady.

If am staffs and pitbulls are the same dog, just bred for different reasons, pitbull being the "working" version, am staff the "show" then what is up with these pitbull breeders that breed for show? How many generations before they refer to their pitbulls as Am staffs?

 

"Now..why was the Am Staff created??? So people could have a show dog that was uniform in conformation and less aggressive towards other dogs.

What is Matrix kennels doing?? Breeding dogs that are uniform in conformation and that are less aggressive. They are breeding their own modern day Am Staffs..regardless of their registration papers or their lines"

Agreed on the creation of the Amstaff. However, you don't know Matrixs' dogs. Most of them are pretty dang dog aggressive, which I know because I'm more familiar with the kennel and Scot and the dogs, so I won't hold that against you. He's doing nothing to breed the aggression out of them because doing so might compromise other crucial factors that make the APBT the APBT. He's also not selecting for aggression either though...if it's there, it's there, and if not, it's not.

Again, the definition of Amstaff is the issue here. If one of your dogs threw a pup who wasn't game, would you call it an Amstaff too? Just because it isn't your perfect ideal of the breed doesn't mean it's not still of the same breed. I guess the major issue here is that I don't completely morally agree with game breeding. I don't see how it benefits society at all. (And, I might add that there is no way for you to verify that gamedogs do indeed have healthy hips. Pit bulls, as I'm sure you know, are masters at hiding pain, so without testing, for all you know every dog in your yard could have bad hips). Matrix dogs are tested to prove that they have all of the qualities the average person wants in a game dog (good temperament, health, beauty-which is obviously in the eye of the beholder, and perhaps most importantly, heart). I do consider Matrix dogs game, but in a different aspect than most of you would think of.

Game breeders have managed to change the meaning of the word to only apply to their particular sport, when it reality being game means that a dog is unwilling to give up despite any challanges it might face. This can be found in Schutzhund, hog hunting (which I'm not sure is any more moral, but is legal), and to a lesser degree wieght pull and iron dog competitions. Alaskan Malamutes, Greyhounds, racing horses are all said to be game, but they aren't used in the fashion that APBT gamebreeders use their dogs. I guess it comes down to purpose...I can see the purpose in Schutzhund and hog hunting, so that I'll agree with. There isn't much purpose in wieght pull, agility, iron dog comps, but at least in competing the dogs have a lower chance of getting serously injured. Perhaps that's exactly the point...perhaps they need to be to prove themselves to be game, but I just can't agree with that. Again, it all comes down to purpose for me.

 

"If one of your dogs threw a pup that was'nt game, would you call it an Amstaff too?"

No I'd call it a cull. lol
All of the events you mentioned are excellent ways to help Ambassador the Breed. There is nothing wrong with any of them. I really enjoy watching Dogs hunt, Pull, compete in agility work, etc. (although I do disagree with using bulldogs for man work) But the simple fact is the true heritage & breeding of these dogs revolves around one thing. The further you get away from that the more you will distort the genetics and traits of the breed. That is what has happened with the conformation dogs. Ask anyone who does a lot of shows & they will tell you that show bred bulldogs don't usually carry the bone & muscle density of Gamedogs. Their hides are'nt generally as thick & tuff. Not saying it's a bad thing but just in the last 30 - 40 years you can see a difference in what selective breeding has done for these dogs (both positive & negative). But I can tell you have a real passion for the breed, keep up the good work you're definately in the right place.

 

I had a dog that was a backcross and a mix of show and game dogs (he was not scatter bred though). He was one crazy hard driving thick hide bulldog with lots of hybrid vigor and prey drive coming out of his ears. So if you look hard enough now and then you can get some nice dogs w/show blood in them.

 

yep..like I said in a previous post theres only 2 words for a APBT that is not game..an Am Staff or a cull. If one is breeding for gameness, then they refer to those that dont make the cut as culls. Sometimes if I r eally liked the pup or had high hopes We will have them fixed and make them a house dog or give them to a pet only home ..

and I'll say it again ..I never said there was nothing wrong with Matrix kennels dogs IF thats what you want ..but I still say it isnt the true APBT..its more of the AM Staff version. (and even that type of dog is very athletic..they just lack the most important trait that makes the APBT the APBT.) AS far as most kennels go, they seem to take great pride in their dogs and at least prove their worth as show dogs or pull dogs..

 

Ok, NOW I see what you're saying, and yes I totally agree. They are breeding just for conformation and leaving out the gameness. They are breeding APBT's without the main thing in them, leaving them to be Am Staff's.

 

The nicest kennel set up I have ever seen is Eppinette kennels. They have about the most awesome set up you could find. Their dogs are VERY WELL bred. They are game dogs. Before you decide on buying a dog I would check in to them and see what they have to offer...I don't think you could ever go wrong buying a dog from them...if you want a game bred dog that is not game just let a breeder of game dogs know that you want a curr and before they decide to cull a dog to call you...there is your rescue dog...WITH papers...LOL

 

I hope you're joking about placing currs as rescues. I feel one of the biggest problems with these dogs is the number of currs that are still walking around. I would NEVER give a known cur to anyone but the worms! Now a cold dog, if they don't work out, yes get them fixed and give them away as pets. But if you can't handle the responsibility of maintaining the integrity of your yard you should'nt own these dogs.

 

As I said at the beginning of this thread, I'm a newbie to game dogs, but I can't help but wonder why you wouldn't let a cur dog go to a pet home? As far as I know, cur just means they didn't prove to be game, right? What's wrong with somebody owning a non-game APBT (esp. if they are new to the breed and perhaps not ready to own a high drive or very game dog)?

 

Just bc a dog is a cur does'nt mean that it won't fire up. It is not pet quality IMO. A cold dog has never started up, which makes them a better candidate as a pet. Plus like I said, it goes against the entire philosophy of improving the breed.

 

Still having a good debate! I must say - I'm impressed

 

I dont see a problem with placing a Cur to a home. When breeding there is always a chance to get some curs, that doesnt make the dog worthless, It can still be a great pet and make someone happy. I would NEVER put a dog down because it was a cur UNLESS it was human aggressive. I would ALWAYS make sure that the cur gets spayed/nuetered so that it will never be bred. I guess to each their own, Thats just me personally, I would never breed dogs that I didnt think would improve the breed, but if I got some curs they would be fixed before they go out and then I would find a good home where the people are looking for a pet. Even if I had to give the pup away for free and eat the cost of the vet bills for shots and getting it fixed, feed until it goes out etc.

Of course I do not view breeding as a means to make money, if you can recoup the cost you put into it then thats a bonus, but if it comes down to placing a cur to avoid killing a dog that has a shot at life in a good home, I see no problem with that personally

 

But if you spay or nueter a cold dog, and give it to someone who wants a companion/pet who cares? They aren't breeding the dog, they aren't [] the dog. You don't even have to give them papers. It's not like they are going to tell everyone that you gave them a non-game dog, and try to ruin your kennel's rep.

 

It's statements like that that fuel the fire for tens of thousands of apbts being euthanized in shelters every year. I also breed only those who have proven to be breeding material. But I don't see anything wrong in spaying/neutering those that don't work out & finding happy homes for them where they will be loved & cared for. If we as owners of this breed are so ready & willing to kill off most of them ourselves, what message does that give society? Don't you think we already have it hard enough as APBT owners? & since I work with our APBT rescue here in Louisiana (where we get dogs from all over the southeast region), I can honestly tell you that those people who are adopting could give a rat's ass what bloodlines the dog came from. It is our job as APBT owners not only to improve the breed (through very selective breeding), but to also show society what great pets & companions these dogs can also be, & through adoption we create this opportunity.

 

Great post Miakoda!

I'm still not quite sure where your coming from SFK. Is it the potential for the cur to show dog aggression down the line? If so, then that shouldn't be a problem if the dog goes to EDUCATED pit bull owners. Dog aggression is to be expected in this breed, regardless of whether they show it their entire lives or if they turn at at six years old. Anyone who can't deal with that shouldn't own a pit bull period.

How does this type of dog just existing damage the breed? Again, if he's in the hands of responsible owners who know that dog aggression may pop up and actively handle that, then I don't see an issue. There are plenty of non-game APBTs who have done wonderful things for this breed...Bandog Dread, that female who saved a ton of animals and humans from a flood, the female who saved her boy from getting bitten by a snake, the dog who saved her owner when she went into shock in the middle of the night with nobody awake to help her...

 

i agree with sfk, a dog that doesnt make the cut should be culled, besides if you want a good spay/nuetered pet , go to the pound,

 

While I'd agree that anyone who wants to rescue a pit bull should go to a rescue (not the pound...they tend to not be very good at evaluating pit bulls or providing them with what they need), I'm just trying to understand the logic behind the statement.

Could it be a difference in opinion on what "pet quality" is? To me, pet quality is just a dog who shows good temperament but isn't of breeding quality (and should therefore be spayed/neutered).

If culling dogs who don't meet your standards is an effort to reduce the population of pit bulls who do need homes, then I *might* be able to understand that, but from your posts that's not the impression that I've got so far.

 

Miakoda, I respect you & your knowledge, but you kind of made my point for me. Why do you think there are ten of thousands of pitbulls in shelters every year? Because the breeder/owners are not willing to assume the total responsibility of owning this breed. They don't want to take care of their own culls. They pawn them off on the shelters, who try to adopt them out but usually just put them down. I hate that it happens! However, how many responsible bulldog owners do you meet at your clinic compared to the ones who make you cringe? I cannot say that a curr that is placed in a responsible, home would'nt make a good pet. I would'nt do it. JCleve, what you need to understand is that lacking gameness is a very broad arena. A dog can become a complete monster for 7 min & then just quit fighting. That makes it a curr in my book. But it is not a candidate as a pet. Would'nt you agree? A curr is a dog who has quit. It could of taken it 5 min or 2 hr. But once a dog stops it will always have the knowlege of stopping. That is the difference between a cur & a cold dog.

 

I am not against, by any means, weeding out the game from the curs, the good from the bad, etc. I also agree that these dogs should not be bred therefore no longer having a place within a working/breeding program. But if you think I am for taking the dogs out back and "disposing" of them by any means necessary, you're wrong. Once a curr is recognized, that shouldn't mean that it's life has come to an end. What does it matter to the owner if the dog is anonymously surrendered to a APBT rescue where it is altered & then placed up for adoption. The breeder's name will not appear on the dog, nor will an adopter demand papers on a dog that they are obviously wanting to adopt strictly for companionship. And once it is altered, it cannot breed therefore it cannot create any more currs. And as you stated, if these people want a pet, go to the pound, well, that's exactly what they're doing except these people choose to give a life to a dog that people previously wanted to deny it. Again, if other breeds get a second chance, why not this one? The only situation that I would put my foot down on giving up a dog for a pet is if the dog shows human aggression. Then you're right that the dog should be euthanized.

In addition to having working dogs, I also have 2 rescues that came to me after they were taken in a drug raid in N.O.--both are deaf. You come spend time with these dogs with whom my neighbors kids love & my little boy loves & then tell them that the dogs deserve to die b/c they didn't quite make it as "working" dogs. As far as I'm concerned, these 2 dogs are out there helping to create a positive image for the dogs in the hopes that one day you and I won't have to risk having the government step in take our dogs from us (if you haven't noticed that's what's beginning to happen). If you feel that I am still missing the point, please continue on with this discussion as I am here to listen to what others have to say.

 

theres already enough unwanted apbt is shelters as it is, why keep adding to the problem, curs SHOULD be culled, plain and simple, like someone said if you cant deal with ur own culls, get another breed