Matrix Kennels

While it's a rather heartless action, I do understand it from this perspective.

 

so save the shelter dogs but kill the curs? I bet most of the shelter dogs ARE curs. Why not euthanize the shelter dogs and find homes for the curs? Why is the dog in the shelters life more important than the one that isnt? Both are unwanted lives.

I think that neither should be culled, in a perfect world we wouldnt need shelters. Killing dogs is not what needs to be done in order to stop the overpopulation of dogs in shelters, overbreeding needs to stop, the only reason that there is so many dogs is because people create that problem, some people breed far to often. They seem to have limited knowledge and breed like crazy hoping for that special dog, maybe they should have a better understanding of genetics and the like and have less litters but better planned. There are just too many people out there trying to make a buck.

You also should look at it in another way, shelters mainly tend to have older dogs, this is great for some people but other may want a dog thats young so that they can train it from scratch and it is easier to socialize when young and some people just want to experience the puppy stage.

Personally if I was looking for a "pet" I wouldnt have a problem with an older dog out of a shelter

 

Look at all the APBTs in shelters and rescues and tell me about that the people that DO adopt these dogs. Are they experienced owners, who know the potential animal aggression problems that can pop up later in life? Some maybe, but most no. How is that doing our breed ANY GOOD? Its not. These are great dogs, and the reason we are having the problems in the media now is because they have become a popular "pet" dog that "everyone" wants. I've been online for awhile now and see just how many people that have absolutely no idea what these dogs are all about running out and "rescuing" one of these dogs. Ok, so they are doing a good thing but then the problems start up.. They are surprised when they have an aggression issue with their new "rescue" and their current dog, or find out their new dog likes to escape, or the neighbors don't like it...then what? Either the dog goes back to the shelter/rescue for another try or it winds up in the headlines.. These dogs are not for everyone, and when anyone off the street can come in and pick one out because its "cute" or beautiful and not have any info or history on the breed how is that helping the breed out? Between BYBs who are out to make a buck, people breeding for show and shelters letting just anyone adopt an APBT we're in trouble. So what is the solution? Selective breeding and placing of APBTs, and yes culling out the dogs that are not up to standard. Sounds harsh but I want to own these dogs LEGALLY in the future.

 

Excellent post LadyRampage....

I especially liked this :
"Look at all the APBTs in shelters and rescues and tell me about that the people that DO adopt these dogs. Are they experienced owners, who know the potential animal aggression problems that can pop up later in life? Some maybe, but most no. How is that doing our breed ANY GOOD?"

 

This is a great debate, and I completely understand both sides of it, but I do share more of JC's views. Now LadyRampage, one of the things you said and I quote "So what is the solution? Selective breeding and placing of APBTs, and yes culling out the dogs that are not up to standard." You make a comment about selective breeding, but I just looked at your website and you have had or plan to have 4 litters in just a matter of months. Do you not feel it is people just like that who are constantly producing litters that make up a majority of the problem? How is that selective breeding? I do not mean to offend you, but it would help me to see your perspective and understand where you are coming from if you could explain the reason for breeding so many litters.

 

Very good point. Yes I have planned breedings listed on my site but they are not within a matter of months. Some of those breeding have been planned for YEARS and haven't happened yet, and I'm not breeding to sell them. Most of what we breed stays here or goes to our partner's yard. We have a clear goal with our breedings and we do cull those that are not up to standard. In fact the first breeding with pups listed on that page is a breeding for a friend in which I rec'd my picks for a stud fee and the owner of the female placed or kept most of that litter. (In fact I ended up with a total of 4 dogs from that breeding alone) We haven't had a litter at our house in over 7 months (and out of those 9 pups NONE were sold), with the exception of a litter that was born lastnight/today.

People who are producing litters and sell to just anyone to make a buck are the majority of the problem, not those that breed to strenghten their breeding program and keep most if not all of what they breed. Those that are placing pups in the hands of irresponsible owners that know nothing about this breed are the majority of the problem. Those that are breeding to strengthen their lines, and are using/keeping what they breed are BETTERING(is this even a word?) the breed and keeping it true.

And you didn't offend I could see where you might not have understood my point since I don't clearly state on all the breedings that none will be available, but I'm pretty sure on a more than one of those I did state that nothing would be available. Hope this cleared up a few things.

 

But there IS the exception to the rule. And as most people know /dont know, it is illegal to kill a pet and bury it in your backyard depending on where you live... in this day and age you need to be really careful. Not everone can afford the luxury of living in the middle of no where . Nosey neighbors can bring serious hurt onto you..regardless of how private you choose to be

A cull does not mean it is a bad dog..it doesnt mean its not pet quality. It does mean however that it should never ever be bred nor should it be sold for $$$

I agree you shouldnt pass crap on to others and that some people probably go over board but you cannot even guarentee the prospects you sell or the few pups out of a litter you sell to not end up being currs.

As for the cold dog..I would rather give a cur as a pet than a cold dog. You never know when a cold dog will fire up and then you are in a wolrd of hurt At Least with a cur you know it will quit and you know for a fact how it will act. A cold dog could come around at any time Its these "non aggressive" apbts that get us into trouble. Oh..look, spot gets along with all my dogs" then all of a sudden the dog doesnt..


I personally see nothing wrong with giving a cur away as a pet now and again as long as one doesnt make a habit of it.

 

Opps actually I didn't realize I had pulled down the breeding I had on there for a friend. The first breeding listed is actually the one we have on the ground now..

The 2nd breeding is one we have been waiting on but the bitch just hasn't came in heat and I've been slowly pushing back the dates, and since this is already Jan and she isn't showing any signs I'm going to be pushing back the dates again..lol

The 3rd breeding is wishful, it may or may not happen depending on the yard space we have at the time.

The 4th breeding will be the last breeding of this female and we've been waiting to get a good litter of pups off her for 2 years now..

Guess I should pay attention and update the site every once in awhile...lol

 

Do you know how many "rescuers" travel the streets looking to save and snip of an animal they find?? I've seen uphand what they try to save and place in adoption.. and tell you the truth, these animals are great and deserve a great home.

but on another note, there are many people who do not want to adopt from a shelter ..they would rather get a nice pet animal from a breeder . they jsut dont want to take their chances with a stray or turn in becuase no one can be sure of how they were bred, how they were taken care of health problems.. These people want to have the reassurance that they are getting a well bred, well tempered pet. They like the fact they can see parents, know the pup has been taken care of from day one and know that if they have any problems a good breeder will always be there to help them or even take back a dog if the need arises

 

"Look at all the APBTs in shelters and rescues and tell me about that the people that DO adopt these dogs. Are they experienced owners, who know the potential animal aggression problems that can pop up later in life? Some maybe, but most no. How is that doing our breed ANY GOOD? Its not." -LR

I would say the problem here is most definitely with the rescue, not the people. Many people do think you can love dog aggression out of the breed or that some human aggression is acceptable in an abused dog. They should NOT own pit bulls. The rescue should be responsible enough to NOT place pit bulls with people like these. Responsible rescues only place pitties with responsible owners, or else the dogs continue to be fostered or are PTS.


Back to the original (kind of) topic...I've had an epiphany in the past few days. I somewhat understand where you are coming from when you call show type pit bulls Amstaffs. I think for so long we've been told that APBTs are working bred pit bulls and Amstaffs are show bred pit bulls, when there are always clearly exceptions to the rules (APBTs bred for show, some Amstaffs bred for work). I've thrown out the official titles and come to this conclusion: There are two types of pit bulls. Show pit bulls (Amstaffs or APBTs) and gamey pit bulls. There is some middle ground, like Matrix which has what I'd consider to be the show pit bull but works them too, but I would still call them show type pits. Then there is the game pit bull...I don't think I need to explain that to you! This is something I've always understood intellectually, but I've never placed show APBTs with Amstaffs I think simply because of the different name.

 

I want to start by saying that I can understnad the point of view about adding to the shelter's probs by trying to place these dogs. When it comes to putting up apbts for rescue, I can only speak on the experience I have w/our rescue. To begin with, we only take on as many as our foster homes (me & a couple other homes who are used to the breed) can manage. For those we can't take, then euthanasia it is. When it comes to that, I firmly believe that it is a good way to go & beats living chained up in som assholes yard getting fed about 2 times a week or living life in a cramped shelter kennel. When it comes time to adopting them, we are VERY strict. However, I have treated (at our clinic) dogs that were shot or strangled or poisoned on purpose by their owners, but yet did not die & were found by some unfortunate person who tried to save them (I can't tell you how many pit bull "carcasses" were found in trash cans emaciated & shredded to bits, but still breathing). & I believe that is against the law in all states to kill an animal yourslelf (unless it's in self defense) & the price you pay when caught is a hefty one as it is a serious animal cruelty charge (i might be wrong for some states). There is a long & involved adoption procedure: owners must have experience w/this breed, vet references (if you don't have one cause you've never owned a dog, too bad so sad-no doggy for you) & so forth. Most of our rescued dogs live with us about 6 mo.-1 yr before they find a home. We never lie about the dog aggression to people & like mentioned it comes with the territory. We don't adopt out to homes with small dogs or cats. And yes, most of us who foster these dogs, end up with these dogs for life. However, 3 rescues I fostered have gone on to be damn good catch dogs for my brothers & a friend. Although I have my apbts & I occasionally have a litter (only when I can do good & I keep most of the pups b/n me, my brothers)I would not trade my 2 rescues for anything in this world. They started off there lives in a sh***y way, & I'm not about to kill them b/c they're not game or of good quality (both are deaf). & so they live spayed & happy w/the rest of my gabillion dogs for the rest of their lives. I am not forcing anyone to like what I do "on the side" for this breed, but I for one do not thing it is wrong to let the currs have a good, happy life even if they do nothing more than pull someones kids around in a red wagon.

 

You have a good heart. Exactly how much is a Gabillion? lol

 

thanks, sfk. gabillion=10 apbts, 1 Olde English Bulldogge, 1 Dogo Argentino, 1 Shar Pei/Cane Corso mix, & 1 Rottie. I would also like to say that I commend most everyone's insistance on breeding to keep the breed "true" as that is how I like it & want it even though I go a diff path in placing the currs in homes vs. culling. I would also like to say that I respect most of y'all out there in ya'lls efforts to keep the dog we love today the same dog it was yesterday. If only the rest of the general population undertood that & put the dogs first before the money.