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Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Mr Mark, Sep 3, 2008.

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  1. GSDbulldog

    GSDbulldog CH Dog

    My profile is private because while I love my dogs and am quite proud of them, I don't need self-righteous folks with nothing better to do poking around in my business. It doesn't mean I'm trying to hide anything. I just want to be left well enough alone.
  2. pennsooner

    pennsooner CH Dog

    Olivia, because so much of your info is coming from a questionable source (the HSUS, the source of your 40,000 quote) you draw incorrect conclusions in a number of cases. And those cases hit a rather raw nerve. The biggie is that having a chain set up means a person is dogfighting. I don't believe "curs" or just flat out poorly bred pitbulls should be killed for it, but they should NOT reproduce and I'd rather have a decently bred animal. I've been around the breed enough and seen enough dogs to have noticed a difference between standard animals and poorly bred ones.

    Now, I do NOT think a dog needs to be a fighting dog to be an outstanding APBT. BUT, very conscious effort does need to be payed to proving the dog has good drive and working ability.

    You seem to be echoing the HSUS line that any well bred, small, lean agile pitbull is likely a fighter. Quite the contrary, the vast majority are not. And people like you claiming that most standard dogs are part of some criminal activity is quite reprehensible.

    The HSUS is a radical animal rights group that would just as soon see pitbulls wiped out. Their anti dogfighting efforts exaggerate the scale of dogfighting and make BIG money off of it. And they do it on the backs of anyone who has true to type dogs.

    When you on one hand claim to be a pitbull advocate and on the other parrot the line of an arch enemy of the breed, you'll get some hostile responses.

    If you read, learn and pay attention you'll learn to tell the difference between people who do in fact love dogfighting (even if they aren't directly involved in it) and people who love fighting dogs (and dogs from those lines). I agree that it is sickening when people flaunt their love of a bloodsport. We are working to get rid of them on this site. But a person can as they say on the street, love the player and hate the game. And even more so when most traditional type of dogs never have a tooth laid on them.

    Also, I'd argue that you might have a faulty premise that you've never really thought about. The premise would be "dogfighting is SO evil that very extreme measures are justifyed to combat it".

    That is a very dangerous idea. It is VERY easy to do more harm than good when a person takes a scorched earth attitude to combating a social ill or a crime. And the anti-dogfighting hysteria is a prime example. The HSUS is willing to see the breed wiped out and large numbers of innocent people jailed to get that done. In fact I'd argue that wiping out the breed is all part of the plan. Its simple to me really.

    If the authorities want to enforce the law I have nothing against that. But if you want to bust people for dogfighting, then bust them for dogfighting. It can't be that hard with modern surveillance techniques. Keep watching someone and when they do in fact fight or roll their dog THEN arrest them. But don't arrest them for having a spring pole or a tred mill or a chain set up. Arrest the guilty.

    That is the root of the deep seeded anger you are running into. People get sick of being represented as criminals when they are guilty of nothing other than offending the sensibilities of a busy body.
  3. MinorThreat

    MinorThreat CH Dog

    oliveah, someone already asked your APBT personal experience. Do you own the breed? How long? How many dogs? ect

    can you answer the question

  4. Marty

    Marty Guest

    Oliveah I saw this statement on your site...

    I thought inbreeding wasnt good. What are the benefits of inbreeding. I can only think of a couple.


    Copyright 1996, Sarah Hartwell

    Adapted, with permission, from Cat Recourse Archive and edited by Dog Breed Info.

    Inbreeding is the mating together of closely related dogs, for example mother/son, father/daughter and sibling/sibling matings. For breeders, it is a useful way of fixing traits in a breed - the pedigrees of some exhibition dogs show that many of their forebears are closely related. For example, there is a famous cat by the name of Fan Tee Cee (shown in the 1960s and 1970s) appeared in more and more Siamese pedigrees, sometimes several times in a single pedigree, as breeders were anxious to make their lines more typey. Superb specimens are always much sought after for stud services or offspring (unless they have already been neutered!) having won the approval of show judges.

    However, inbreeding holds potential problems. The limited genepool caused by continued inbreeding means that deleterious genes become widespread and the breed loses vigor. Laboratory animal suppliers depend on this to create uniform strains of animal which are immuno-depressed or breed true for a particular disorder e.g. epilepsy. Such animals are so inbred as to be genetically identical (clones!), a situation normally only seen in identical twins. Similarly, a controlled amount of inbreeding can be used to fix desirable traits in farm livestock e.g. milk yield, lean/fat ratios, rate of growth etc.


    This is not to say that inbreeding does not occur naturally. A wolf pack, which is isolated from other wolf packs, by geographical or other factors, can become very inbred. The effect of any deleterious genes becomes noticeable in later generations as the majority of the offspring inherit these genes. Scientists have discovered that wolfs, even if living in different areas, are genetically very similar. Possibly the desolation of their natural habitat has drastically reduced wolf numbers in the past crating a genetic bottleneck.

    In the wolf, the lack of genetic diversity makes them susceptible to disease since they lack the ability to resist certain viruses. Extreme inbreeding affects their reproductive success with small litter sizes and high mortality rates. Some scientists hope that they can developed a more varied gene pool by introducing wolfs from other areas into the inbred wolf packs.

    Another animal suffering from the effects of inbreeding is the Giant Panda. As with the wolf, this has led to poor fertility among Pandas and high infant mortality rates. As Panda populations become more isolated from one another (due to humans blocking the routes which Pandas once used to move from one area to another), Pandas have greater difficulty in finding a mate with a different mix of genes and breed less successfully.

    In cats natural isolation and inbreeding have given rise to domestic breeds such as the Manx which developed on an island so that the gene for taillessness became widespread despite the problems associated with it.

    Apart from the odd cat jumping ship on the Isle of Man, there was little outcrossing and the effect of inbreeding is reflected in smaller-than-average litter sizes (geneticists believe that more Manx kittens than previously thought are reabsorbed due to genetic abnormality), stillbirths and spinal abnormalities which diligent breeders have worked so hard to eliminate.

    Some feral colonies become highly inbred due to being isolated from other cats (e.g. on a remote farm) or because other potential mates in the area have been neutered, removing them from the gene pool.

    Most cat workers dealing with ferals have encountered some of the effects of inbreeding. Within such colonies there may be a higher than average occurrence of certain traits. Some are not serious e.g. a predominance of calico pattern cats. Other inherited traits which can be found in greater than average numbers in inbred colonies include polydactyly (the most extreme case reported so far being an

    American cat with 9 toes on each foot), dwarfism (although dwarf female cats can have problems when try to deliver kittens due to the kittens' head size), other structural deformities or a predisposition to certain inheritable conditions.

    The ultimate result of continued inbreeding is terminal lack of vigor and probable extinction as the gene pool contracts, fertility decreases, abnormalities increase and mortality rates rise.


    Artificial isolation (selective breeding) produces a similar effect. When creating a new breed from an attractive mutation, the gene pool is initially necessarily small with frequent matings between related dogs. Some breeds which resulted from spontaneous mutation have been fraught with problems such as the Bulldog. Problems such as hip dysplasia and achalasia in the German Shepherd and patella luxation are more common in certain breeds and breeding lines than in others, suggesting that past inbreeding has distributed the faulty genes. Selecting suitable outcrosses can reintroduce healthy genes, which might otherwise be lost, without adversely affecting type.

    Zoos engaged in captive breeding programs are aware of this need to outcross their own stock to animals from other collections. Captive populations are at risk from inbreeding since relatively few mates are available to the animals, hence zoos must borrow animals from each other in order to maintain the genetic diversity of offspring.

    Inbreeding holds problems for anyone involved in animal husbandry - from canary fanciers to farmers. Attempts to change the appearance of the Pug in attempts to have a flatter face and a rounder head resulted in more c-sections being required and other congenital problems. Some of these breeds are loosing there natural ability to give birth without human assistance.

    In the dog world, a number of breeds now exhibit hereditary faults due to the over-use of a particularly "typey" stud which was later found to carry a gene detrimental to health. By the time the problems came to light they had already become widespread as the stud had been extensively used to "improve" the breed. In the past some breeds were crossed with dogs from different breeds in order to improve type, but nowadays the emphasis is on preserving breed purity and avoiding mongrels.

    Those involved with minority breeds (rare breeds) of livestock face a dilemma as they try to balance purity against the risk of genetic conformity.

    Enthusiasts preserve minority breeds because their genes may prove useful to farmers in the future, but at the same time the low numbers of the breed involved means that it runs the risk of becoming unhealthily inbred. When trying to bring a breed back from the point of extinction, the introduction of "new blood" through crossing with an unrelated breed is usually a last resort because it can change the very character of the breed being preserved. In livestock, successive generations of progeny must be bred back to a purebred ancestor for 6 - 8 generations before the offspring can be considered purebred themselves.

    In the dog fancy, breed purity is equally desirable, but can be taken to ridiculous lengths. Some fancies will not recognize "hybrid" breeds such as the white or Parti-Schnauzer because it produces variants.

    Breeds which cannot produce some degree of variability among their offspring risk finding themselves in the same predicament as wolfs and Giant Pandas.

    Such fancies have lost sight of the fact that they are registering "pedigree" dogs, not "pure-bred" dogs, especially since they may recognize breeds which require occasional outcrossing to maintain type!

    Continued below...
  5. Marty

    Marty Guest


    Most dog breeders are well aware of potential pitfalls associated with inbreeding although it is tempting for a novice to continue to use one or two closely related lines in order to preserve or improve type.

    Breeding to an unrelated line of the same breed (where possible) or outcrossing to another breed (where permissible) can ensure vigor.

    Despite the risk of importing a few undesirable traits which may take a while to breed out, outcrossing can prevent a breed from stagnating by introducing fresh genes into the gene pool. It is important to outcross to a variety of different dogs, considered to be genetically "sound" (do any of their previous offspring exhibit undesirable traits?) and preferably not closely related to each other.

    How can you tell if a breed or line is becoming too closely inbred? One sign is that of reduced fertility in either males or females. Male dogs are known to have a low fertility rate. Small litter sizes and high puppy mortality on a regular basis indicates that the dogs may be becoming too closely related. The loss of a large proportion of dogs to one disease indicates that the dogs are losing/have lost immune system diversity. If 50% of individuals in a breeding program die of a simple infection, there is cause for concern.

    Highly inbred dogs also display abnormalities on a regular basis as "bad" genes become more widespread. These abnormalities can be simple undesirable characteristics such as misaligned jaws (poor bite) or more serious deformities.

    Sometimes a fault can be traced to a single male or female which should be removed from the breeding program even if it does exhibit exceptional type. If its previous progeny are already breeding it's tempting to think "Pandora's Box is already open and the damage done so I'll turn a blind eye". Ignoring the fault and continuing to breed from the dog will cause the faulty genes to become even more widespread in the breed, causing problems later on if its descendants are bred together.

    In cats, one breed which was almost lost because of inbreeding is the American Bobtail. Inexperienced breeders tried to produce a colorpoint bobtailed cat with white boots and white blaze and which bred true for type and color, but only succeeded in producing unhealthy inbred cats with poor temperaments.

    A later breeder had to outcross the small fine-boned cats she took on, at the same time abandoning the rules governing color and pattern, in order to reproduce the large, robust cats required by the standard and get the breed on a sound genetic footing.


    Inbreeding is a two-edged sword. On the one hand a certain amount of inbreeding can fix and improve type to produce excellent quality animals. On the other hand, excessive inbreeding can limit the gene pool so that the breed loses vigor. Breeds in the early stages of development are most vulnerable as numbers are small and the dogs may be closely related to one another. It is up to the responsible breeder to balance inbreeding against crossings with unrelated dogs in order to maintain the overall health of the line or breed concerned.


    By the way, Thanks for joining :D
  6. Marty,
    Thanks for the info.
  7. LadyRampage

    LadyRampage Top Dog


    Hmmm something is not right here... why are you avoiding the simple question concerning your experience with the breed?
  8. Mr Mark

    Mr Mark Guest

    I don't think she has any. I think, from her myspace page, her boyfriend has one or two and I think they are rescues.
  9. Minor Threat,

    I have owned dogs my whole life. Im not sure when I became interested in pit bulls. If I had to guess I would say maybe my freshmen or sophmore year in high school. Interest sparked a persuasive essay my senior year on illegal dogfighting and its affects on society. I've been hooked ever since. RESEARCHING! RESEARCHING! RESEARCHING! Creating quality videos with a message (oliveah31587 on YouTube BTW). Engaging in heated debates with people who hold the typical prejudices against pit bulls. TRYING to do the right thing. Of course, the right thing isnt always so obvious. AS WE ALL KNOW ;) I worked at a boarding facility for two years trying to pay bills, you know. I spent ALL my time with dogs. All day, everyday just about...including of course...pit bulls. I became very good at dealing with agressive dogs that wouldnt come out of their room. NOW THATS A CHALLENGE I LIVE FOR! Because when a 90 lb German Shepherd dog that wont let anyone near him and has bitten two people already since hes been there (the boarding facility)....jumps up and kisses your face after hours of one on one time...well you've done some good:) People always told me I should be a trainer and certain dogs were not alllowed to be handled by anyone except for me. The feeling of knowing a potentially dangerous dog trusts you...is wonderful. BUT NEVER A RELATIONSHIP ONE SHOULD OVERESTIMATE AS THE RESULTS COULD BE HORRIFIC. Im happy to say I've never been bit and there have been few attempts...but some. Unfortunately life for me is in a sense...still unfolding and the pieces of the puzzle called my life are a little scattered. Im not financially stable enough at this point to support myself (Im paying for school as well as car note, phone bills, insurance, and my car just brokedown and needs a new engine which Ill pay back over time....making one more bill). I dont want a pit bull right now because when I do finally have one...I dont want to half-ass it you know? I want to be the best owner my dog deserves. And time as well as money are in short supply for me.:( I did actually rescue a female pit bull last month though. (I know...."only one....like ever?" but at least its something right?) She was wondering down towards a busy intersection in 100 degree whether with no I.D. Called shelters, and vets...no one missing her. To me it just seemed like a clear case of someone leaving their dog unattended in an unsecure area and the dog got out. I fell in love with her and she was in my eyes...the perfect pit bull for me. But I knew I couldnt keep her...so I finally found her a home...after lots of "hems" and "haws" over potential owners. My boyfriend (who also owns a pit bull...the one on my default photo on my page) had a few friends who were interested in her but I told him absolutley not! I wasnt in a rush to get rid of her that quickly...so quickly that I would set her up for failure by placing her with an owner that would do her no good. A guy I went to high school with who lives about 5 minutes away actually ended up getting her for his mom....and yes...I cried. lol. Im always with pit bulls it seems like. My boyfriend and his friends all have them.

    So am I a novice? Without a doubt! Have I/do I/ will I make mistakes? Absolutley. But I've still contributed in my own little way. One of my videos has been favorited within the pit bull community 1,080 times and viewed 248,109 times as well as posted on numerous myspace pages. And for that Im greatful. Because I know Im being heard. Do I have a bloodline? No. Do I have a rescue organization? Nope. Do I breed pit bulls? No.Have I had the opportunity to tell people I've had years and years of experience yet? No, not yet....but its something Im working on. And to be bashed again and again by what I hoped would be a community which would eventually welcome me with kindness and wisdom as one of their own (a pit bull owner)...it IS discouraging. But not enough to keep me from the breed I love. I've just got to do better next time. Ill be more thorough in my judgements. The problem is not arrogance and not heeding the words of the wise.The problem is that the wise and/or more experienced never made their knowledge or their delivery very appealing. I was attacked, not corrected (by most...not all).
  10. Marty

    Marty Guest

    oliveah... I really hope you stick around, we do have some members here that has had these dogs longer than you've been alive including myself, not saying I know it all because every day I learn something new as it should be... If you have problems on this site please contact me personally and I'll deal with it... If you have any questions please feel free to ask were here to help you learn all you can about this breed ;)

    That said please go through the site not just this thread and I'm sure you'll get a better understanding, just keep an open mind :D
  11. LadyRampage

    LadyRampage Top Dog

    Well thank you for clearing up your experience level with these dogs. I do hope that you've learned that alot of the people on this board have many years of experience and knowledge that they are more than willing to pass on.

    I get the impression that you've learned more from this thread then you expected as well. I have to say that I give respect to those that took the time to read through this thread and respond with educated answers.

    I hope you will stay around, ask questions, and even contact some of the more experienced APBT owners to continue your research.
  12. Marty

    Marty Guest

  13. Thank you Marty. I appreciate your forgiving attitude and your understanding...and I will definitely be sticking around as long as Im welcome.:rolleyes:
  14. Im very eager to be a part of this community and I feel fortunate to fall in love with this breed before I own my first pit bull because I have the opportunity to make sure I do it right the first time. ANY SUPPORT YOU ALL COULD THROW ME WITH MY VIDEOS would be helpful also.
  15. MinorThreat

    MinorThreat CH Dog

    Oliveah, You sure throw out some harsh judgements/labels on indivual APBT owners, which are all assumptions and they come from someone who's never owned the breed.

    your myspace page eludes to those looking as if you're an expert on the breed, I think you should make it clear that you have never owned and lack experience, which make your judgements, labelings and "call outs" invalid

    *this message board is a great place for APBT 101 and also a place that Old Timers can get something from... stick around, study and learn from true fanciers of the breed*
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2008
  16. masta of game

    masta of game Banned

    haveu`apologized to the people at least, the people on ur list.

    u welcome :eek: lol :D
  17. I have nothing to hide....and I never state anywhere my credentials...and I dont feel a need to do that...because I dont have any. And last time I checked I didnt need any to be a pit bull lover....or do I? My blogs have never been factually based, but based on my opinions which I've stated time and time again. I guess people just shouldnt ASSUME from my profile that I know everything just like nobody should ASSUME people are dogfighters right? I think profiles that ended up on the list should have done more to make it clear what their credentials are....I guess we've all got draw our own conclusions. Either you agree with what Im saying or you dont. Either you will research further to discover truth or you wont.
  18. But I Will Consider It...and Try To Think Of Something More Clever...any Ideas?
  19. But I Will Consider It;)...and Try To Think Of Something More Clever...any Ideas? ANYONE?
  20. yes sam..... i HAVE. However...my apologies certainly were not directed towards you. Your comment was one of the harshest Ive heard..."cur bitch in heat"?

    and what is it exactly that you use your dogs for?
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