Old Family Red

Yes, there was more then 1 Klan who owned fighting dogs in Ireland.
The dogs the Irish immigrants brought to the U.S. was called Old Family Reds.
Not their own strain, their own bloodline as you have so many different ones of the APBT has today.
The dogs were around for so long no one knows for sure where the fighting dogs in Ireland originated in their country.

You have to get out of the mentality of thinking dogs had bred names over 200 to 300 years ago.
Irish would refer to them as their old family red dogs.
Klan's in Ireland, England and even the mountains in U.S. did things with in their own family.
Outsiders weren't welcome. Family business wasn't let known to outsiders.
Each Klan stuck to their self.

 

look now a days the old family reds are a peddlers wet dream we do not have them here in Ireland now (why?) and there are no records of them here back then , they where bred in America .
when it comes to the differant strains of bulldog it seem the ppl who specialise in a certin strain like to have a tale to go with their dogs , just like colbys theory of the bulldog being crossed with the terrier and the modern british bulldog fanciers who claim that their useless mutants are the same dogs that where used back in the day in the bull rings.

maybe some dogs did die off in the famine or maybe we ate them all lol but surely there would of been records or stories of these deep game red , red nosed bulldogs here in ireland by irish people not americans tryin to sell pups .

@ iron mike i only asked to see some pics ! i am hardly gonna run off and write a book , come on man back up your theory and show us your pictures of all these red red nose dogs that where imported to the U.S from ireland !

 

No Old Family Reds were bred in Ireland. No records over 200 years ago? Maybe because education was a luxury most couldn't afford.
Records from Ireland brought here to the U.S. on how the dogs were bred in Ireland.

I won't speak of Colby ideas but those who had dogs long before Colby had dogs directly imported from Ireland.
You can call them all a liar for all I care.

As far as dinning, you said it not me. :lol:

"now a days the old family reds are a peddlers wet dream"
" red nosed bulldogs here in ireland by irish people not americans tryin to sell pups."

hum reads like someone is in denial and has a problem with others have dogs dissented down from something they no longer have.

One problem with those remarks. Everyone who had the breed knew about Old Family Red dogs imported from Ireland long before the breed got popularized in the middle 1970's. Over 100 years and more this has been know.
So the peddler theory doesn't hold water.

 

i am fully aware that bulldogs went to the U.S with irish immigrants i just dont think that they went there looking like the dogs ppl call the OFRN that type of dog was bred to be red in the U.S maybe from dogs that would of been down off the old irish imports that would of been red , black , white, brindle or pied.

you said " no old family reds where bred in ireland " thats what i am tryin to tell ye ! LOL but seriously you cant prove they were ( unless you post up pics of these red red nosed dogs fresh off the boat) and i cant prove they where not , so lets call the whole thing off :-)

 

you reckon i am envious of you coz you have "ofrn" dogs lol if they where all that they would be here , they are just like modern colby dogs( we dont have or want them here either) the vast majority do nothing but prance around a show ring !

 

She was the only dog I ever seen that was intravert that came from dan.It is no reflexion on Norrod I would give my right and left for any of those dogs.She produced better than any dog I ever owned.Just wanted to show respect to Dan and Mike.

 

Many years ago i corresponded with Pete sparks who put me in touch with Jacob Wilder and Ron Sitzes , at the time Jacob was a very old man but still owned some amazing looking dogs , he sent me photos of his dogs and they were pure Old Family Reds all through the pedigrees , when i asked them about conditioning they both told me to contact Mayfield as he was the best they had seen . I felt this was praise indeed as they had about one hundred and fifty years of knowledge between the two of them , the dogs Jacob had were pure Rednose and the most beautiful dogs ive sen , they oozed quality and class , i still have these photos and pedigrees and sometimes take a look at them its like looking back in time , without looking im sure these dogs were bred from Hemphills Geronimo breeding

 

Jacob Wilder ,Thats funny Couse In 54 he said he didnt have ANY red nose dogs and didnt want any, All that was at his place at that time was there was a red female, from CLOUSE that had red ace blood and some roper, also Bigboy who was very old. And at that time he was found of the old donovan blood, Buckskin Black nose mostly , but black and brindell dogs also, The Red nose doge were not his Choice dogs He may bred some for Money just like they do now,, What peopleDont Know is Jacob raised game dogs since he was a young man and the red nose dogs werenot his Cup of tea, He stated it several times.

 

What year was that??? how maney red dogs did he have then? I would like to see those,My grandfather was friends with him ,pete,and Mr simms, mr kitchell all them old crackers lol, Man that was along way to go take pics of dogs from petes house, you didnt get any?

 

along with a photo of JacobWho said i went to Sparks or Wilders yard as i certainly didnt , i still have the photos here of the dogs Wilders Reckless Red , Wilders Reckless Reba , Wilders Blaze , Wilders Inferno ,Sitzes Red Princess(Wilders little Red Baron 2/Wilders Little Red Sister) and other pure OFRN along with a photo of Jacob Wilder himself taken on Sitzes yard . I also have a number of photos from Pete Sparks of his yard at Starke in Florida sent by Pete in the late seventies and others taken by friends who visited with him including a great photo of him in his eighties holding a dog that he told me carried some of the same blood i had on my yard back in the early eighties . A dog was imported from Ireland by Joe Orday and bred into some of Joes dogs , Pete had dogs down of this dog and sent me photos of one of them called Hank , i had a old dog that was bred from a brother/sister mating of two of the littermates to the dog Joe got from Ireland

 

Interesting since you posted the old article on your site in 2006. His page that I linked to is copyrighted 2001. But that's neither here nor there or worthy of much consideration since the article has been around a hella lot longer than either of your websites and neither of you wrote it or have the only copy.

Regardless, I don't buy into the myth of OFRN. Post some famous red nose dogs before say 1920. How about some articles about famous matches with red nose dogs involved before say about 1920. OFRN is an American name for an American strain of bulldog that was imported from Ireland, England and mixed with what was already here ... and someone "got lucky" and produced some damn fine red nose dogs out of all of it. OH ... and please post a ped of a red nose dog that DOES NOT have some Colby back in there somewhere. They ALL do, even if it's just a drop or two, even Centipede way back in the ped. Hell, I wouldn't be SHOCKED if Colby's Topsey (and maybe other Colby's) DID have a hand in "OFRN". The Colby dogs were Irish and English after all.

It is humans that are making so much out of it. The dogs don't give a shit. Human greed, ego, desires, pissing and posturing have a lot to do with it ... so does survival. The red nose became wildly popular during the depression and mostly out of the midwest when even dog folk were hit hard and needed to make a buck. Thus red nose then by and large was what blue nose is today ... a fad ... except a lot of those red nose dogs could perform. And the red nose dogs continue to be bred and peddled ... as are they all.

That's how I feel about it FOR NOW. At least until some of my requests in bold above are satisfied and I've done my own further research. I've spoken with folk from Ireland and they ALL say pretty much what the Irish poster(s) in this thread say.

While I don't have the experience that many of you have ... I don't listen to what sounds like revisionist history, hype and spiel and temper what I do hear from knowledgeable folk according to the size of their ego and stake in the matter.

A man may KNOW the facts ... but in a discussion he won't always pass them along. It's just the nature of "the game". Therefore it's important to consider ALL sources ... not just the one that huffs and puffs, curses and shouts the loudest or says the same thing over and over. A dog sure of himself is a quiet dog. He doesn't bluff his way along.

 

Oh I thought you were friends with pete and went and seen the rednose dogs he had, I guess I took it wrong the way They ozzed class and all, I wasent calling you a lier I said in 54 he DIDNT have any thing to do with them an 70 are long apart. yea I know pete had them dogs from joe o we got some also. I have been to petes sparks maney times and still go there sometime lol. I just said I would like to see the dogs wilder had then. Thats all Like I said he may have started breeding them for selling like every one else. I just think people hear his name and the allway say red dogs and that is not all he had and I know he was very proud of his Donovan dogs him and sam kennedy had the same blood and they were very good well build powerfull dogs, I was just thinking If you had some peds we could see if some of the old UKC dogs were crosses that he may have put together I dont know Just wondering. Couse I know my grand father was totaly against breeding the old red dogs with our dogs he bred up. He said it would just throw crazy currs, I allways wanted to know why he thought that. Whe I asked he would say when you breed a Ch dog then ask , well hell he was dead by time I did that.

 

Mike, the Staffords traditional colouration is
brindle
red
fawn
white
or any of these with white
Red nose was known as liver. Lack of pigment was known as Dudley.
The most predominant colouration in the Stafford is black brindle & red…….all inheritance form THE BULL DOG.

 

Tigerlines, maybe the bull dog came in all sorts of colours including rednosed. For example the black and tans, we all know that that is a very dominant breeding colour but unwanted to the show fanciers. Now i get the strange tought they might have just culled that part of inheritance from the bull dog ? Could be ?

 

you mean this pic ?

 

NO,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Old Family WERE bred in Ireland!

 

Careful now unless you want to prove those remarks. This is a big world were we all can travel to find the truth.
And call those champions I have been assoicated with was?
My record speaks for its self, and you?

 

No the Staffords were not.
You like so many confuse the modern English Bulldog the original bulldogs who was brindle.
The white you refer to comes from the English White Terrier in English Bull Terrier.
The original Bulldog was what was used in creating the Staffords not the English Bulldog you see today.

Excuse me, and who do you think I am?
You do realize I bred more red nose dogs then anyone alive.
I have produced more red nose champions and winners then anyone that has lived.

I sure to hell know what a dudley nose dog is!!!!

BTW brindling is in all breeds of dogs.
It is the marking of the wild dog and can't be bred out from any breed of dog.
It will appear.

 

prove what remarks ? that there are no OFRN dogs in Ireland , im telling you there are none here !
nobody is saying anyting about who has done what with dogs are they ?
what i am questioning is the "theory" that OFRN dogs where bred in Ireland and it seems no body can PROVE they where !

 

Let me inform you, this is my second billboard on that site and the post was put on the Internet by me in the 90's I put up the first billboard for the APBT and at the same time so did Dan Gibson of Southern Pride Kennels and Bullgame Kennels.
No the article hasn't been. I remember when Eddie wrote it and it wasn't wrote belong I had my first billboard.
BTW people can copyright and still add to the site.

If it is a myth, then where did Lightners dogs come from? Feeley dogs, Shipley's dogs, etc.?

If you have some Police Gazettes and Dog Fancier Magazines I will point them out.

Old Family Red NOSE is an American term coined by Dan McCoy.
I guess the dogs Bob Hemphill and Dan McCoy got in 1927 just appeared in that year?
Just yardshitters up until that time and never did anything.
Funny thing is, everything I have read refers to them being around in the 1800's when writing was more into fashion.
Even the single registration, which I have read AT UKC, has the color of the dogs on it.
When the dogs we first registered at the turn of the century had dogs going way back into the 1800's.
BTW, those dogs Bob and Dan got, were UKC registered!!

As for line BS, even your boy Colby admitted Galtie was Irish import!
I named many who imported the Irish red dogs, Corcoran, Feeley, Shipley, etc.
Lightner's family.
BTW name me a Colby dog which doesn't have red nose in the pedigree...
Besides Galtie don't forget the Earl Tudors dog the boys got after WW II named Oscar!
He too had red nose in him.

Even Colby's Emjay had to have red nose in him according the experts on the gene recessive traits to appear where it has to be in both dogs, in this case Princess Golden Renee who was a red nose off Morris's Brimstone who was a litter mate to Creed's Lady Elgin and Bodzianowski's Stosh 2xw which were all red nose.


BTW "they all do" Throw enough shit up against the wall and something will have to stick.
Peddle enough and the name will too.

How could Colby have a hand in any old Old Family Reds imports?
Bill Lightner had dogs decades before Colby and had them decades after John P. died.
No body owned the breed of APBT longer then Lightner.
Owned them all his life and lived up into his 90's....

"It is humans that are making so much out of it. The dogs don't give a shit. Human greed, ego, desires, pissing and posturing have a lot to do with it ... so does survival. The red nose became wildly popular during the depression and mostly out of the midwest when even dog folk were hit hard and needed to make a buck."

How do you know anything about dogs? What have ever done to prove what a dog thinks, how it acts, what can do, etc.
Making wild statements might be impressive to the readers but look at what a person has done before buying into their BS.
First off the Red Dogs came New England not the Midwest.
Jim Corcoran lived in Boston.
The imported dogs were popular in the 1800's and this is why people in the Southwest wanted them. They used them to cross with.
Even modern day combat dog has OFRN in him including DIBO!

You think the OFRN thing was a fad, son you are talking to the wrong man you shoot off your mouth in an open forum.
You think all it was is a fad, prove it to me!
Back up those remarks with proof.

"While I don't have the experience that many of you have ... I don't listen to what sounds like revisionist history, hype and spiel and temper what I do hear from knowledgeable folk according to the size of their ego and stake in the matter. "

Son you are running you mouth pretty hard, maybe it is time for you to learn your next lessen in history and how REAL American Pit Dogs are.

"Therefore it's important to consider ALL sources ... not just the one that huffs and puffs, curses and shouts the loudest or says the same thing over and over. "

Or the new kids on the block with all the answers who tries to hype a bloodline long gone from APBT and are no more then AST bred dogs.
Some one has never owned the strain or know which end to clip a lead on a pit dog.

There is an old saying, short one, "when in doubt, find out."

One last thing, I have the largest Library in the world of APBT, I also have access to the oldest known pedigrees in existence.
I no longer teach dogman 101 for free.
I had a life time with these dogs, third generation.
Learn my lessen the hard way. I don't need newbie trying to change history.
I personally don't care what someone has to say when they never knew what the true APBT was about and bred for first hand.

Now you want to see a true OFRN dog from a bloodline over 40 years from 3 dogs and no crosses?
Why they were sought after, the difference in the now AST show dogs or any other pretenders, make it so son.........