Old Timers-Dogmen

This question goes out to all the old time game-men out there......I've been afraid to ask because I dont wanna get me head bitten off so as a disclaimer let me start by saying this is all crazy speculation in my mind, I just want some insight.....thanks in advance.
In addition I llive in California so the prospect of the bully style taking over is much more real then some of you others down south or in the east so please bear with me.

So it is my understanding that the APBT and Staffie were once one in the same, they spilt when the AKC and UKC chose sides, show -vs-game dogs. So the gameness was bred out of the staffie's right but it seems today that most carry the breed standard physically that I think of from way back when. So lets just say in 10-15 years the bully's really do take over the majority of our pit bull population.....Do you think that the Amstaff's might be our path to pit bull salvation to replenishing the breed?
I dont see nearly as many irresponsible Amstaff breeders overbreeding and manipulating the genes, since they supposedly come from the same lines couldnt we breed gameness back into them? I just think its a better option then trying to salvage the RE/Gotti/Greyline trend, no?

Again, I might be talking outta my A** here but its just specualtion and I just may not have all my facts straight....what do you think?

 

well you don't see it because the public will call a staff a pit bull, a boxer a pit bull, a mastiff a pit bull. pit bull is such a general term. Unfortunatly it is in the name of our dogs.

One thing that would help is people being taught that there are lots of breeds out there and maybe learning them would make them less ignorant. We can look at a doggo, American bull dog and so on and tell the difference like a red flag on a white building but the general public is too stupid.

No staff isn't our salvation. not even close.

and that re/gottie what ever stuff isn't worth salvaging as a line of APBT because they are not APBT at all. Period they are not. No more than a english bull dog is.

 

Great topic. I can't wait to hear some of the responses on this one.

 

I'm no old timer,but from what I've heard there were a few Amstaffs out there that still had some fire in them. Don't know how true it is, but supposedly Ch. Tuffy's dam had a shot of staff in her. Don't know if Amstaff or not.

Gr Ch Boogieman's got a shot of Amstaff in him, but he's a conformationally correct dog.

I know alot of people won't side with a bulldog that's got any hint of amstaff in him, makin him impure, but I disagree. If a bulldog is a bulldog, then it's a bulldog. I might be sayin this cause I have a male with a 10% shot of ruffian.AmStaff and APBTs were all the same at one point, just a registry made a different title. Of course, one registry focused more on the showmanship.

I don't think bullies are ever going to take over. I personally think it's a fad right now and it's popularity won't be so much in the years to come.

The original APBT will rise again!

 

As for the question of Amstaffs being the breed savior, no. It would still take a game to the core APBT crossed with a driven Amstaff with some mouth to get anything.

Anyone else seen any successful breedings with a half Amstaff dog or anything like that?

I wasn't there for this breeding, but I was told this was a good breeding and that dog produced a CH. Off of John Dunn's yard, and I've heard he's a best to best breeder.

This is a 3rd gen male in one of my dog's. http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=68243

 

your taking my question ina direction that dosnt pertain to my question.....I dont care what the general public thinks about my dog. I'm speaking of history....not really looking for opinions but actual facts....thanks though

 

Lethal Pits....

Sweet reply! I can see how some old timers might have a huge disdain towards the ams-staff's....like Chevy -vs- Ford, haha but its all american muscle baby!!
I wish I had as much faith as you that the big bully's wont overcome but like I said in the beginning the west coast is almost void of game bred pit bulls. It took me a year just to find a breeder that didnt have 80lbs+ pit bulls. My girl is 2.5 years old and 65lbs. She's just a house dog but my dad who hunts has to go all the way to Texas for game dogs.....adn I'm almost ashamed to say ( as is he) that a lot of hog hunters in this area have turned to the Catahoula/Pit Bull mix for hog dogs. He'd never pay for one, their a dime a dozen here but they have proven very usefull in the field

 

Yea I heard Cali is full of bully style dogs. Guess it became a big trend on the west coast. I'm down here in Tennessee, and you rarely see a bully style dog in Memphis. I see em all over east Tennessee though.

I just don't think American Bullies will last because bully breeders will never be as committed to the preservation of their dogs as game dog breeders are of their dogs. Bullies haven't made their mark yet as a working dog neccesity, other than maybe weight pull, and not enough breeders are participating in that.
Game dogs have been here for over a century, and bullies have been around for like 15 years.

 

I hear ya Lethal but I dont think you understand the severity of the issue out here. I went to a bully expo in los angeles that had 32,000 people......not one word of any true game dogs, there was even a booth that was labeled APBT history and it started with Dave Wilson!!!!! Rory, my girl got comments like

"Oh what is she mixed with"
"Is she still a pup"
"She's awfully tall"
"That cant be all pit bull"

When I inquired about entering in a show for fun they looked at me like I was crazy

 

Ok so I went totally off topic there.....just humor me please....

I just think that the Amstaff breeders have done a pretty good job of keeping the lines clean...well from my knoweldge,a whole lot cleaner then a lot of pit bulls.
So bottom line your saying they do come from the same lines more then what a lot of people pit bull people like to admit?
Oh and in addition to the bully expo thing I posted, I also attended a amstaff club earlier this year....WOW they really have a lot of anger towards pit bull people huh? Not nice people at all

 

Well damn! lol. That's a big show! So Dave Wilson is the new Earl Tudor huh?

I might need to come out to Cali and preach! jk

 

I am not an old-timer, nor do I call myself a dog-man. The "bullies" for the most part come from AmSaff lines, not APBT lines. If you look at UKC show dogs,they have gotten more bully looking in the last 15 years or so. The UKC is a total joke IMO. You can take an AKC dog that has been registered AmStaff going back many generations, and the UKC will gladly take your money and register the dog as an APBT with them. That was the beginning of the slippery slope our breed is sliding on. Had they the foresight way back when, we wouldn't see alot of the problems we see today. So, the AmStaff cannot be the salvation of our breed since that is the breed typically mixed with whatever to make them huge and ugly. Now, as a side note, I have been reading some things recently where game-dogs were tipping the scales at 100 pounds back in the 70's. These dogs were bred for the []. Kinda makes you woder, were they mixing them back then, or is it possible that they just bred catch weight dogs to catch weight dogs and they started throwing dogs that size? Check this out:

 

If you look at a game bred dog that becomes a confirmation Ch, there is a big difference between that and a Am. Staff Ch.
I don't see how the Am Staff could save the APBT, the APBT kept going down its original path while the Am Staff branched off and went a different direction.

 

Funny that add reads like some of the peddlers you see in the Gazzette today, with huge blue dogs saying they have dogs like Chinaman, Eli Jr., Bullyson, Iron Head, etc..

 

PB219- Wow thats crazy....I wonder how those 100lbs'ers came about back then. I heard one BYB breeder defend himself agaisnt mixing breeds by claiming he got the biggest game pit bull's he could find and bred them together but I just cant see two 60lbs'ers producing a 100lbs dog. Sure I have NO experience in breeding but isnt that just common sense? Kinda makes you wonder about that ad you posted, no?

Scottsman-So I dont technically get what you mean by the Amstaffy's branching off. I mean I know they were bred for show and confirmation with a lot of game bred out of them but I mean genetic wise like mixing breeds how are they much different? I see a lot of them that look a lot more leaner and game-ier then a lot of my local pit bulls

Also I dont mean to frusterate you guys with my never ending questions and I'm not discounting what your saying.....just wanna know whats the deal!

 

This is what I put up with in Cali....

http://monterey.montereycountyweekly.com/buyselltrade/classifieds/ViewAd?oid=oid%3A281977&name=pets%20for%20sale
I called her and inquired about them being Staffies with the UKC....she said she had teh paperwork from the UKC that registered them as Staffies.....look at how she spelled Terrier, ha ha!
I told her I'd have to pass because it sounded strange to me and the crazy lady offered one to me for $300......OMG!

 

whoops, here ya go

http://monterey.montereycountyweekly.com/buyselltrade/classifieds/ViewAd?oid=oid%3A281977&name=pets%20for%20sale

 

To me the Am Staff is a different breed, they have a heavier structure and really aren't as athletic looking compared to an APBT. If you look at dogs bred only for gameness their conformation usually isn't that great.

 

Do you think that the Amstaff's might be our path to pit bull salvation to replenishing the breed?


I don't consider an Amstaff as a source of replenishment. I do not think the Amstaff should be considered the same or put into the same classificationa s the APBT. IMO, they are two entirely different "animals".

In the 70's, 'the change' took place, and it was decided that the APBT and the Amstaff would be "seperated" from one another, and the AKC was called in! The APBT was then distanced, furthur from the Amstaff, and I think, that's when the lines were furthur drawn between the two.
and not an oldtimer, this is meerly my opinion on this subject.

a lil reading from another site:


[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A small group of pit bull fanciers decided that their "Grand Old Breed" needed full American Kennel Club recognition in order to distance itself from its baiting/fighting heritage. A standard was drawn up and application made to the AKC. [John Colby's dog "Primo" was one of the dogs used to formulate the AKC standard, and Primo's picture illustrated the idea of perfection for many years. Those wanting to know what a real American Staffordshire is supposed to look like should study a picture of Primo.][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The dogs were accepted, but the AKC would not allow the word "pit" in the name, and so the rather dubious designation of Staffordshire "terrier" was chosen. Only the AKC could come up with a name like that! Staffordshire was a place in England noted for its harsh way of life and its fighting animals, however, it could hardly claim to be the place of origin. And placing this bulldog in the terrier group was simply ludicrous. Terriers, named for the Latin "terra" meaning earth, are smallish dogs which "go to ground" after small prey. They are noted for their quick tempers and sharp intelligence. True terriers are "hand spannable", meaning a man can grasp the dog behind its shoulders and have his fingers touch. Dogs larger than this are of doubtful use in ground work. To consider a breed which has always worked above ground, whose original purpose was the gripping of large wild game, then later wayward bulls, and then later still combat with a variety of animals, a "terrier" defies explanation. [/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The word "American" was added to the name of this very British breed in the 1970's when pit bulls began being imported to the US under the name Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Most registries simply lumped the two dogs together, since they were the same breed. The AKC and UKC did for many years. Yet the two lines of the same breed had changed in some important physical ways. The pit bulls developed in the UK after the turn of the century had been bred strictly for show and pet. Emphasis had been put on a stocky, "bully" look and small size. Top weight for the breed was 35 pounds - in reality the bottom weight for most pit bulls. Because of these differences, the AKC created two breeds where before their had been one (this has been done several times, as with the Norwich and Norfolk terrier to name one example). Because of this division of the same dog, there were now three distinct "breeds" all originating from the good ol' pit bulldog. The American pit bull terrier as registered by the ADBA and UKC, the American Staffordshire as registered by the American Kennel Club (and by the UKC, but as an American pit bull terrier) and the Staffordshire bull terrier as registered by the AKC and now the UKC. For further clarification on these three lines of dog, click here.[/font]


so, since it apprears that owners seem to gravitate towards one (APBT) or the other (Amstaff), based on personal preference, I can't see how the Amstaff would be the salvation to the APBT, as I personally do not consider them to be the same. The Amstaff could replenish the Amstaff, but I do NOT think the Amstaff could replenish the APBT, if nothing else, meerly based on demand of the APBT: they are continously still sought after, based on the qualities they, themselves posess. Amstaff, different animal, to me. If there is a threat to the APBT and its future, I don't foresee people flocking to Amstaffs meerly to obtain a "pitbull". That to me is settling for something you may not REALLY want, and I doubt people would "settle" for an Amstaff, when it's the APBT that they really want.
Again, two different "animals" so to speak, imo. ...just my .02....

 

Look here you asked for those of us that have been dogging for a long time. I gave it to you as it is. Am Staffs and those bluff dogs are nothing at all to us. Dirt, that is what it is. They are not APBT and not a direction we should ever look at in this breed. period. Kids always trying to change something and mess it up. Change is what has caused us so much trouble already.