Protection (bite) work

I'm not very familiar with protection training, but is it common to incite the dog to attack by cracking a whip? See link to video below for example.

http://www.youtube.com/?v=Ml-d3TgwKfA

 

the link is in some kind of repair,,I have never seen a trainer crack a whip,,they weren't using the whip on the dog were they? I can't view the video,,it dosen't make sense to me,,I would not want to carry a whip to motivate the dog if I am being attacked,,what would i need the dog for,,I would just whip the attacker LOL

 

I can't see the video either but I do know often in protection work they will have the "bad guy" with some sort of weapon {stick} in his hand to simulate a real situation where the "bad guy" might have a weapon. They will start out in early training with the stick just being waved around while the dog has a bite so it learns to hold the bite during distraction, then will progress to gently touching the dog with the stick while it's working so the dog isn't going to be scared or distracted by contact and let go and progress to somewhat hitting the dog with the stick so the dog learns to not release even when the "bad guy" is hitting them or fighting back.

 

Zoe's right. In proper training, a whip wouldn't be used to incite the dog at all, but as a distraction to see how committed the dog is to the task at hand.


EDIT: I just watched the video. From my experience, the training methods seem very typical. The dog in the video is a great example of the well-trained schutzhund dog. Notice how the dog knows when to "protect" and when it isn't necessary. The latter seconds of the video feature the "long down," something that was so difficult for my dog to learn during the training process, that I nearly gave up. The dog is required to stay down despite various distractions as the handler walks away to a certain distance, then gives the dog the okay to come. Very trying for a highly energetic gamedog who wants to be with his owner every second.
Nice video.

BTW, a whip wasn't used in my dog's training, but a bamboo rod and starter pistol were among the tools that were.

 

I've also never seen the whip, but they always have an "agitation stick" I'm sure the whip is fine, it makes a sharp noise anyways. Notice that the prong collar wased use in the obedience segiment and the two inch thick leather was used for protection training. Those collars along with harnesses allow your dog more control on the end of a leash, which is why I advise against them if your dog is not leash trained.

 

Usually a bamboo stick is used that is split at the end, so when moved it makes a lound cracking noise. The dog is hit in the flank and hindquarters with the stick but it does not hurt the dog, bamboo is so light. It is meant to provide a distraction to the dog. Whips are not usually used, but in the clip the dog was never actually hit with the whip.
In my opinion, the dog was not a great example of a schutzhund dog. In heeling, the dog is to wacth the owner at all times, that dog was very distracted. He also lagged alot with the about turns and in heeling in general. When he was not supposed to be attacking, which he didn't, he was constantly checking the owner and acting submissive, which leads me to think the dog was trained very forccefully. He also took his eyes off of the agitator a lot, a good schutzhund dogs eyes won't leave the agitator. I think that if the dog had of been trained with more positive methods, his performance would have been nicer. Have you ever seen a beautifully trained schutzhund dog do heelwork, they look like they are dancing with the owner

 

I agree, pit bulls were not intended for that kind of work and do not compare to the breeds that were bred for that purpose. That dog was shaking his head which is a no no and looks more prey driven than defense driven, but I'm sure his training is not close to complete. Bite training is the first step and the dog had a poor grip, the whole mouth should be on the sleeve. German Shephards and Dobermans hold the top slots in Schutzhund with Belgian Malinoi following. It takes a certain type of nervous system to deal with challenging human beings in a threatening situation. Even the dobes and G. Sheps bred for protection training have to mature physically/mentally and undergo a test of "defense drive" which should only be done by pros. Even then many never have what it takes and the ones that do are born with it, it is not something you can ingrain into a dog.
I would be extremely cautious buying a dog that was protection trained, so many people don't do it properly or train dogs who do not have that drive. These are the dogs who kill people ( there are many cases of dog related fatalities where the dogs were "protection trained") I have known people who send there dogs away to be trained and end up with a truly unpredictable and dangerous animal. Schutzhund by the way is a sport and these animals are born having what it takes and are not afraid but they only attach the sleeves, it is a far more complicated thing to teach true attacking. There are very strict rules and things to look for with these dogs in the ring. The pros say that true protection training (w/out the sleeve) takes about two years to train. Does it make sense that you could ship your dog off who probably doesn't even have D Drive for a few months and end up with these results?

 

Well said, I meant to mention about the dogs bite, a dog would lose points for not having a full mouthed bite, but at least he didn't chew on the sleeve.
I haven't seen a lot of apbts do schutzhund, mostly the GSDs and mailinois and such and love to watch them do it. I disagree with pit bullss being used for it, although the dogs are not trained to actually be aggressive with the decoy, it creates a bad public image. And if the dog is trained under the wrong hands...

 

Round and round we go on the abpt's and protection work :rolleyes: .

puregame

 

Since APBT's are not naturally guardian breeds, wouldn't it be better to train them using prey drive instead of defense drive?

 

No. They should not be doing that line of work....period.

 

Do the dog's in "Shutzhund" (sp!) only bite the arm? It seems to me that they just hold a would-be attacker in place, does that mean if you were to stop moving everything would be okay?

 

In French ring the decoy wears a whole body suit but in schutzhund the dog only bites the arm. If the decoy was to stop moving, then the dog should let go but stand watch in front of the decoy prepared to rebite if the decoy tries to get away.

 

id love for my dog to do all of the command work and none of the bite work. its just not really the best breed in my mind to do it with. They are too explosive about things. GSDs and other shephard type dogs i think are calmer and more suited towards it. but this is just my non expert opinion.

 

I personally, did not like the video. I found nothing more than, the same training methods used for some police work. I don't like when they put negative things out there for show. It will just give someone else the idea of trying it, and not being trained enough to handle it.

 

Have you ever seen a working bred GSD or Malinois? Their owners joke about how these dogs will correct (bite) them if they do something wrong. One Malinois owner I know on another forum who also has a well bred bully dog is jokingly called "bloody nubs" by the bully dogs breeder because of her Malinois'...uh...nippyness. These types of dogs are anything BUT calm. Plus, unlike bullydogs who view Sch as play, they take it seriously. As was pointed out, dogs typically bred for this kind of work run on defense drive often times, verses prey drive in bullies. Bull dogs have the perfect temperament for this sport IMO...because it IS a game to them. However, because of how the public percieves the sport ("attack training"), I can understand why some folks are opposed to this breed being involved.

Personally, I'm looking into getting a working bred Boxer down the road...check these dogs out:

http://members.aol.com/SchutzBoxr/

 

I have yet to see why we should encourage a bulldog to view a human as "prey". It's constantly stated that they (bulldogs) work off prey drive in this sport & I just can't fathom reinforcing that behavior. Humans are NOT prey!

 

Attack / protection dogs are trained (conditioned) to react to a certian stimulus.. for example a person acting in a certain way.. thats what makes them so danagerous expecially in the hands of idiots who are not qulaified to train nor understand how to choose the right dog. An innocent person could unknowingly act in a certain way which triggers a response from the dog..

Guard dogs and watch dogs are different from "attack" or "protection" dogs, because Guarding is a natural behavoir in some breeds while "attacking" needs to be taught

 

yeas i have seen trained attack dogs had some friends in the PD. ive never seen a nippy or x citeable dog i wouldnt want one. so some lady has a dog that bites her to much mine wouldnt have teeth after the first time. a well trained dog in this field i would think should never nip bite or be in any way agressive towards its handler. im not sure i would want any hunting breed dog trained in this as they are going off of a prey drive and could decide one day that me or a friend are prey.

 

Schutzhund is a sport which tests, tracking, obedience and protection but it is a game in which these dogs should not be threatening or nippy. Protection work, or police work is different and these dogs are usually not able to handle families, I think the trainers have everything to do with this, they are not supposed to be nippy at all and it really takes a pro to train a dog right. These dogs do get excited (both) but should not attack unless told to. That is actually very important because how could you control the situation if your dog goes off the minute you arrive at a scene?
In the hard-core protection or Schutzhund trials (there are III Shutz. levels) there is a sequence of bites. The dog is actually supposed to corner or "pin" the "agitator" in a certain location, the harder the trials the harder they make the course, they actually set up areas for the dogs to pin or run through doors or tunnels, it's very intense. If the man does not react properly with the arm bite the dog moves to the 2nd location, I don't remember what part of the body, but there is a certain sequence, the arm, leg, arm again, etc. either way the dog tries to take the man down and eventually it will. No dog should ever do this on prey drive and if you want a protection dog (why would any civilian want one?) than why get a pit instead of a shep or dobe? I wouldn't train a dobe to catch hogs just because it's my favorite breed.

Check this out, this is true protection work by the Frech (who are seriously obsessed with this kind of training, they have the hardest protection ring in the world) these are Belgian Malinoi
http://216.227.212.230/videos/050822-police-dog-video.wmv
You can tell though that they do NOT have the best control over these dogs! Not worthy of the ring.