Th3 Futur3 Of Apbt?

You basically repeated what I just said although you tried to make it an arguable debate when it's not. One dog will have more game than the other which would make it game at some point and if two dogs race, the one that wins will be the faster dog. No dog will ever be the gamest or the fastest or the strongest but nice try on wanting to try and make a point.:rolleyes:

BTW; I love the contradiction on your part like the statement in bold

 

Curs are not game. That is why they are called curs. Just because a dog makes another dog quite does not mean he is game. Gameness is very rare and not that easily obtained. If you put two curs together you will have a winner, but not a game winner. The dog does not need to be game to win. Their are plenty of rough curs who make champion. Their is nothing like a true game dog and please don't compare them to curs.

 

So you are saying that if for some reason someone wanted to test a bunch of curs then not even the one with the most wins would be declared game. If the dog displays an obvious attitude to not quit then in my book it would be game. It's very logical to have curs be titled game, it depends on the opponent and the breeder/owner himself. I know not many doggers test curs after they've proven to be such so I'm just speaking in "what if" terms. If the dogs have been declared curs and you test each one and a constant winner or two produces out of the group then you have transitioned a cur into a game dog that is aware of what he/she is supposed to accomplish.

 

MrBiggs, say what? I can't decipher what in the hell you are saying. It sounds to me like your trying to justify breeding two curs since "one is gamer then the other, it doesnt really matter!". If you are content to breed substandard mutts, just because striving for perfection is too much work, find a diffrent breed. The goal of every breeder, dog, and owner should be perfection, to whatever the set standard is.

What do you mean no dog will ever be the gamest, or the fastest, or the strongest? Of course one dog will be "top dog" in its arena.

To pancho- I use the term "APBT" to define a bulldog, a gamedog, pit bulldog, whatever name we wish to use for these dogs. I do not use the term APBT to refer to curs, amstaffs or mutts. They are "pitbulls" in the generic sense of the word, but not APBT's, as they dont fit the standard.

Mr. Biggs, everything is improved by striving to be the best, and nothing less. Breeding for anything less then perfection, will ensure, you will never reach it, or come close.

Edit-to respond to new post. --- No, a bunch of curs matched into eachother would prove absolutely nothing! The ammount of wins it has over the other dogs does not matter in the least,and it certainly doesnt prove gameness! It may prove it can bite harder then the rest, defend itself better then the rest, dance better then the rest-but it doesnt prove gameness! What are you talking about, you normally are a pretty logical guy, have you fallen off your rocker and taken off on the backyard breeder bandwagon?

 

Now you are beginning to understand. Your first sentence is correct. One cur dog may defeat the other, that does not mean he is game. What happens when he meets a dog that he cannot defeat. That is the test of gameness. A cur dog may do good for a short time until he begins to loose. To stay and not give up would be game, no matter what punishment he has to take, including death.
You can have a dog that destroys every dog that he is matched against. He may not be game. It has happened many times. A dog will blow away everything he is matched into. When he comes across a dog of equal skill, strength, and bite he will quit. He was a winner, just not game.

 

First of all let's not assume I'm a breeder of any sort and let's not assume that I'm speaking facts. I'm just stating what "could" happen. If a breeder wanted to make a dog that is a cur breeding worthy because he likes something in particular about the dog then let's just say he did place the dog against other dogs until the dog won a few and proved that he in fact does have what it takes.

I know that this is not a normal situation that's why I said I'm speaking in terms of "what if" and as far as the "find another breed comment from 14Rock, I think people only say that to feel like owning a bully is just for them. I could be wrong but let's not make those kinda statements again because to some that read that they may believe this breed is truly dangerous.

 

What the hell are you talking about. A breeder cannot make a cur worthy of being bred. It is not possible. Who cares if you place him against other dogs and he wins. A cur is always going to be a cur no matter how many dogs he beats. Why don't you understand this. You cannot make a cur into a gamedog.

 

what i was thinking, was that a "pet bull" can still be game. but game dogs down the line will be less dog agressive, and more agressive on other animals, no? for an example cats, squrals, hogs, etc,., thing that can kill now.


if any one has any artical of genitics, and how it can change post it up, and it has about dogs or APBT, that would be much better.

 

Woah. I thought I understood where the personal philosophies were on this, but now...:confused:

At any rate I appreciate strongly Rocks and Baker's no nonsense and high expectations when speaking of a gamedog: It's either a gamedog in every sense or it is not. You do not cheapen those truly game dogs by allowing cur dogs the same title.

I also thought I understood Mr. Biggs first personal philosophy- he was allowing the quality of gameness to be metered out in degrees amongst all APBTs as his personal loyalty and appreciation of the breed in its entirety. "Yeah its a pet/cur, but its still APBT, and that's got at least some game." Was how I took his stance on it.

*Note* I don't support breeding of substandard APBT's and calling them game or dirtying the breed with substandard breeding period.

Hell, maybe I am wrong all the way around, but I think you guys are interpreting "game" a little differently. I appreciate the loyalty for the breed shown from both sides.

 

i believe curs do have game.....they just don't know they have it. All curs have an ounce of game breed, and if breed (inbreed) it may come out. at least i think.

u took my words in the a "winner, not game."

 

That is exactly what I am saying. Wins have nothing to do with being game.

 

A Ha. This is where the confusion lies. Where some people acknowledge curs to still have a certain amount of APBT royalty in their veins, others do not. Either way- breeding should be reserved for the best of the best, IMO.

 

Cur = quit(no GAME)!!! Simple enough.

 

So what are you saying if it's not wins.
I think it's how they win that you are trying to get at and that's what I could agree on

 

That's obvious, but try looking at things in a different perspsective. The scenario I'm giving is one that could take place unless it's already happened.

Back to the original topic:
Either way I'm saying that true APBT's will not change into what modern day society is trying to make it.

 

The APBT will not change as long as we don't breed curs. A cur is a cur no matter how many other dogs it can beat. A cur should not be breed. He might have a hard mouth or talent, but sooner or later it will meet a dog who is better and quit. Why would you want to pass this trait to its offspring. A game dog will not quit. Like 14rock said, APBT will not change, but "pitbulls" will. Pitbulls represent alot of different dogs. Bullies, staffies, etc. Any dog with a certain look is labled as a "pitbull." The APBT also has a certain look, but it also has something that no other dog has. A heart bigger than this world. I think you have gameness mixed up with talent.

 

Sooner or later if the circumstance surfaces any dog will meet it's match but sometimes it doesn't reach that point so IMO you have no point and you obviously aren't getting mine. I too don't think an APBT will ever change from its original form although some idiots give it a shot, but I appreciate you stating your opinion and reading mine.

 

What ever you want to call the breed, I know of only one breed of dogs called pit bulls, the majority are not game now and most of the dogs in history were not game. Dog aggressive is many times called gameness. It is not the same. Even in the days when matching dogs was legal the majority of pit bulls were not game. Check the records, they curred out also. Some tried to make excuses but it is still the same.
There are very few people in the U.S. that game test their dogs. There are a lot of breeders that have dog aggressive dogs. If you do not game test your dog there is no way possible to say you have a game dog. You may think and hope they are game but you do not know for sure. You cannot tell by looking. Contrary to what many people think breeding two game tested dogs together does not guarantee their pups will be game. A game tested dog several generations sure does not make a dog game. Not even a high percentage will be game dogs. Many may be da, have great strenght, good wrestling ability, and have a strong bite. That does not make them game.
Look back in history, even when dog fighting was legal, there were many dogs that curred out. Some had won other matches. Check the number of times some game dogs were bred. If all their pups were game there would be game dogs everywhere. Many of the old dog men would not breed to certain dogs even though they may have been champions as they did not consider them game.
The pit bull has already changed. The pit bull does not have a certain look. They come in all shapes, sizes, and color. If there was a person who could tell a game dog by looking he would be rich, and do a lot better than anyone in the history of the breed, including all of the old time dog men.
All you have to do is ask some of the old men who were alive and matching dogs back many years ago. They have much the same opinion of modern day pit bulls that many have for the blue dogs.
The pit bull was a great dog and still is but all are not game and less are every year.

 

We just have different opinions. I don't consider bluffs or staffies to be APBT. I consider them to be something different. Whether they are called mutts or pitbulls. APBT do have different sizes and shapes, but meet a standard. I never said you can look at a dog and tell it is game. Show me where I said that. I said rough curs should not be compared to game dogs. I also said curs should not be bred. Their are still plenty of good dogs around. Like I said before gameness is rare and hard to obtain. I don't know what posts of mine you are reading.

 

I agree completely with almost everything you have been saying. I don't consider the staffs, bull terriers, mastiff crosses, or cross breds to be pit bulls. The part I don't agree with is I don't think the name pit bull represents any other dog but the pit bull. I realize many people cannot tell a pit bull from many other breeds of dogs. Just because they cannot tell what a pit bull is does not make any other breed a pit bull. There is only one pit bull.
Besides it is good that everybody does not always agree. It would get boring without people with different opinions.
Everything I posted wasn't about you, I just have to put a lot of things in one post and when I get to typing I get carried away. I am the same way when I am talking dogs with someone who knows what they are talking about.
I enjoyed the conservation.
Thanks