The REPEATED disrespect of non-game dogs and breeders

two words- Yoa ming. perfect example of breeding freaks to freaks and getting freaks. That family is are chinese.. probably the smallest race of people in the world. The average chinese male height is 5'5" and the female is 5' now to compare that to Yao who is 7'5" would be silly but yo uhave to add in that he is born from parents that were over 6' themselves... keep it in perspective.
Much like in dogs, breeding the largest to the largest increases the genetic propensity for large offspring.
You breed a dog with good head size to a dog with good head shape- you increase the likelihood for head size and shape in offspring. you breed body mass to muscle tone, you are inreasing the liklihood of massive and riped dogs, you breed big dogs to big dogs, you increase the liklihood for big dogs.

you doing the same thing I was talking about earlier. you are taking the average dogs and comparing them to the freaks of today. DONT DO THAT. Take thm and compare them to the freaks of that time, and of those breedings. your 35-40 pound dogs would generate freak offspring in the 60-70 pound range. selectively bred to make 70 pounds the average its completely feasible for the freaks of those litters to be 30 pounds heavier.

I am agreeing that the dogs were bred for size, and yes to a degree even color... not all lines like your thinking but some definately were, and som lines did mix in other blood. All I am saying is that evey dog out there that isnt game bred and is big, isnt a mutt.

 

Oh, and by the way... blue dogs are in no way rare, or selectively bred. of the top studs in these lines only 1 is blue. there are as many colors as you can find the APBT in... red, brown, chocolate, fawn, brindle, black, white, piebald, seriously... he blue dog thing is not as selectively bred as it once was. Most breeders find color secondary to structure and conformation.

 

Bingo!, your dog was bred for its size and color so he's no pure bred

And blue pure bred pitbulls are rare. Because we dont breed for color. If we get some blues we could care less about the color. If i had to chooce between a blue and a fawn pitbull, I would go with game, not because it looks nice.

GAME IS THE ONLY COLOR.

Marty you still culling members? if you know what i mean...

 

MAN AFTER READING THIS THREAD YOU TOOK THE WORDS RIGHT OUT OF MY MOUTH. IT IS YOUR DOG YOUR MONEY SPENT AND YOU ARE TAKING CARE OF IT WHO CARES WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK

 

If your going to do that then just take your pals to the local pound and save one!

I had a tight bred Wilder dog that was max 80 lbs chain weight! I was going to cross him into some tight redboy but the truth about him came out after a two1/2 year wait to see if he was worth the breeding. 50/50 chance that he would be a good dog. Guess what! He was a cur but it was not his fault! It was the breeders fault he was a cur because of the poor breeding selection's in their breeding program.

Breeding for only bone, color, and just all around looks! Gameness was put to the wayside and looked upon as a flaw. Looking at it from a show point of view people did not want to have to deal with a high drive gamedog. To much work if your trying to get the dog to stand and be shown around other dogs. I met a lady with UKC show dogs and her program was based on looks and the ability to stand still.

Any dog showing high drive or sporting a coat 50%white was put down because she had no need for the dogs. One litter may give her two dog worth showing and the rest were wasted for the sake of a damn ring cur! Some show lines like I said come from good game lines and thats a fact! but sometimes alot lose the true APBT standards & gameness set forth by the ADBA and was created by dogmen that had a passion for the breed and its true ability. Lost are the ones that breed for anything other than gameness.

It's true not all game breedings will be worth the time but the effort to try and make the best possible game breeding is better than wondering how many blue or fawn pups you'll get! If the ones that think that they are doing the breed a favor by breeding curs your foolish and need to not own a APBT at all. Show breeders can still breed good dogs but they need get their hands dirty from time to time. If this to much for you to deal with then the gamedogs of the past died in Vain so you can have a show title and have set the fire to the distruction of the true APBT.

 

LOL.. because a dog is bred for a differnt trait.. that now makes it not purebred? Purebred is definitive of the blood in the dog, not the breeding practive to produce the dog. It doesnt matter what a dog is bred for if every dog in that dogs pedigree is of the same breed.. its a pure bred dog.
We stopped talking about my dog a while ago, this is just general dog talk. this has nothing to do with my dog. I am saying that every dog in greyline, or razors edge, or nevada, or butt head, or what ever isnt a mutt. just because the goal of a breeding program doesnt fit what you think the breed is meant for doesnt make the dog a mutt. a cur, yes.. but not a mutt.

I cant stress this enough. breeding a dog to maintain the trait of gameness is hard work involves a lot of testing and culling and is more then most breeders can do, so I give props and all respect to those that can do it. I also have to say that I dont think the preservation of that trait is crucial to the survival of the breed. When you breed two game dogs even if they are proven game, the pups out of those dogs are not all going to be game. are the ones that are game more pit bulls then the ones that are not? no, they are all the same pedigree, the same dog in essence... just some are not game.

Its all about your breeding program.
Just BGFU- the breeder you are talking about is no way a rare, there are breeders that are breeding the dog aggresssion out of the breed, how successful they will be is a mystery but that is the goal of thier program.
You seem to forget this is the most versitile breed out there, they can do anything. by finding the dogs that have the traits that you want and breeding those dogs you are increasing the liklihood of reporducing those traits... whatever they are. does that mean your breeding mutts? No.
this entire thread has been about this one simple thing. just because a dog is big, or a certain color does that instantly make it a mutt... not a cur, a mutt.
a mixed bred dog that has other blood in it, from another breed of dog. and I disagree that it is so impossible for them, at least some of them, to be purebred APBT.

 

LOL.. because a dog is bred for a differnt trait.. that now makes it not purebred?

If your not breeding for gameness, your not breeding pitbulls. You can not get around it. You havent been around these dogs long enough. And from your posts, its bliss

Purebred is definitive of the blood in the dog, not the breeding practive to produce the dog. It doesnt matter what a dog is bred for if every dog in that dogs pedigree is of the same breed.. its a pure bred dog.

NO, our dogs were bred to be game, true pitbulls. Your dog was bred to just look nice. Their is a big difference, but for some reason your not getting it.

I am saying that every dog in greyline, or razors edge, or nevada, or butt head, or what ever isnt a mutt. just because the goal of a breeding program doesnt fit what you think the breed is meant for doesnt make the dog a mutt. a cur, yes.. but not a mutt.

Their GOAL it to big dogs that look nice. People with huge egos seems to want a big and bad ass pitbull. When its not helping us non. You claim you want to help us, and you claim you love pitbulls. But soon as we slam the truth that your dog and those dogs are not pure bred. You rant and rant about how they change over the years and blah blah and that people bred them for different reasons. Pitbulls were bred to be game if your breedings just to have a nice dog, might as well call it a am staff then. Because thats not a pitbull your feeding. Just a watered down and out verison.

I cant stress this enough. breeding a dog to maintain the trait of gameness is hard work involves a lot of testing and culling and is more then most breeders can do, so I give props and all respect to those that can do it.

One of the many reasons why few people need to breed and own these dogs. If the everyday person didn't wish to own a pitbull, there would be less pitbull attacks, banns and other non sence. People admire the pitbull's drive and willingness to please but hey, who wants 40 pound ball of fire? (damnit i do)

I also have to say that I dont think the preservation of that trait is crucial to the survival of the breed.

WHAT!! Its what makes the breed what it is, GAMENESS! If pitbulls were bred the whay you like them, you wouldnt even have that blue mess you have now! you telling me that you would wanna see the bulldog turn from this:



into this useless mess?


If so my friend you are not worthy of this breed. And shouldnt even be here, you know, but your IN DENIAL! Upset that we didn't drool over your dog? Go to a forum that will...

When you breed two game dogs even if they are proven game, the pups out of those dogs are not all going to be game. are the ones that are game more pit bulls then the ones that are not? no, they are all the same pedigree, the same dog in essence... just some are not game.


You breed the gamest with the gameness, even if you have to bring the sister to the brother. The better the dogs, the better the chance of game. But its not always the case, sometimes, you get lucky

Its all about your breeding program.
Just BGFU- the breeder you are talking about is no way a rare, there are breeders that are breeding the dog aggresssion out of the breed, how successful they will be is a mystery but that is the goal of thier program.
You seem to forget this is the most versitile breed out there, they can do anything. by finding the dogs that have the traits that you want and breeding those dogs you are increasing the liklihood of reporducing those traits... whatever they are. does that mean your breeding mutts? No.
this entire thread has been about this one simple thing. just because a dog is big, or a certain color does that instantly make it a mutt... not a cur, a mutt.
a mixed bred dog that has other blood in it, from another breed of dog. and I disagree that it is so impossible for them, at least some of them, to be purebred APBT

One last thing, you think this is a pure bred?

 

ADBA will allow the AMSTAFF listed in its peds! The amstaff and The APBT are the same breed! AKC and UKC just wanted to Church up the name to protect their registry. Gameness is the gap!

Is my amstaff game? Yes/No if yes its a gamedog!

If no then its a cur but still an APBT according to the ADBA. But to the dogger its worthless to the breed.

Some registered as UKC amstaff's and ADBA American Pit Bull Terrier's. Bottom line! If the dog is game and works like a champ the UKC, AKC and the ADBA can call it what they want. I'll call it like I see it! Gamedog or it's a Cur. Is it a mixed breed? No but may be a cur and might as well be a mixed breed to the man looking for a good'ol gamedog. Show breeders and Game breeders will never see eye to eye. Thats why we have so many registries now and new one's forming all the time because they dont like the rules of other registries.

 

I dont want, or expect you or any other gamedog breeder to drool over my dog. YOu are doing specifically what I know and expect you to, "i breed the true APBT anything else is crap." LIke I said I frequent several game dog boards i know the routine. I dont expect you to change your mind about non-game dogs. But Its driven in me to at least make the argument. I see the statements your making and understnad and respect them.. from a game dog perspective you are breeding the truest form of the APBT.
As time has changed so has the job for the APBT, they have moved out of the box and into our homes. As that job has changed so has the temperement, no longer is the insane desire to fight and dominate every dog in sight needed. And as admirable as the triat of never giving up is.. that doesnt make it anymore neccesary. The first time I saw a truely game dog it was amazing. But at the same time it was kind of like " this dogs sole reason of being is to BE IN THE BOX.
I was watching boxing and saw evander holyfield is looking to start up again.. and it was like, he cant do anything else. The only skill he has had is fighting, he has no outside education, no other alternative, and then i started to think about all the boxers out there in that same boat. thats the way it is with the APBT, the game dogs are built and bred for one thing, every thing about them is geared to that end. temerpent, build, standard.. everything. but with the illegalization of that one thing.. does it make sense to continue to breed them in that same way? for a sport they will never see.. or does it make more sense to breed them in a way that will give them other functions, to breed in traits and out others that give them more versatility?

 

It makes sense to keep the breed alive in its origninal form, even if you cant; see the reasons why. Old dog men took years to make the game dog it is. And were doing them a favor by keeping it alive, in the box or no box. If cant understand the imporance of keeping a breed alive and going well then this is not the place for you

 

There is nothing wrong with wanting a dog that is not game bred or breeding them. BUT, when you do that, it makes them AMSTAFFS. Not APBTs. Call them what they are. The people that can't call them what they are, are the people who own the dog for the ego trip. "I have a big, mean, pitbull" and so on. I doubt there are people here who actually have anything against Amstaffs. We are against calling the dogs the wrong names.

 

short and simple, because we are going in circles on this.

I can understand why you breed gamedogs.. regardless of my personal opinion, i understand wanting to keep the original form alive. I can respect that.

I dont understand why there is.. well basically disgust toward breeders and dogs that dont strive to maintain a game dog. hence the title of the post the disrespect because thier programs differ from your own.
Non-game and even show APBT breeders give respect to the game doggers for what they ave done and continue to do, but we are continually spit on in return.
It just gets old after a while, and I just had to speak out on it.. for my own piece of mind.

 

tommyt- I can understand that. especially when the only difference between the two (orginally)was the function for which they were bred. That makes sense to me.

 

Eddington for the other.

 

Great. For the most part, everyone is fine if the dogs that are bred for looks are called what they are. If people would come on here that post pictures of their dogs and ask for opinions would call their dogs Amstaffs or Bandogs, there wouldn't be all of the arguments.
But, it can't be blamed completely on the owners as it is the registries that like to cross register them and cause confusion. When the Amstaff line was first being developed it made sense. But, now they are two different lines and they shouldn't be able to cross register them.
We all try to tell the owners of these dogs that their dogs are not APBT. But, it seems no one wants to hear it. That is why we get frustrated and the flaming takes place. IF THE DOG IS BRED FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN GAMENESS, IT IS AN AMSTAFF.

 

Yes, Like i said too! If its game its a gamedog or APBT which u like to call it. I dont have AMStaff's but i know people that do and they hate my dogs as i do theirs but i know my dogs blood has a more heart felt meaning because it came to me by way of blood than by Damn! That dog looks good! Point! see it! I hope so! Drop it! the my dog is a amstaff is fine but not a true gamedog

 

That statement is full of stereotype. Some are like that but the majority I own know the difference. My adults readily play with pups and kin. Several even love playing with cur breeds. I have a friend whose retired gamedog loves to play with the neighborhood mutt that visits his door frequently. They wrestle and run around after each other and have never harbored ill will. A properly schooled and trained gamedog knows the difference between business and fun. Don't just blindly label them as you did above or the rest of your statements will start to reflect the same naivety.

Regards,

B

 

Look I have been trying to stay out of trouble but someone made a statement that was a bit strange and I believe inaccurate. A APBT is determined by is genetic lineage, breeding, blood lines what have ya. Game is there or its not. If the dog is game good for you if not it doesnt suddenly turn into another breed.
I hope this does not cause a fight but lets argue the valid points and not start another could be popular rumour. But this is just my take.

 

If it isn't game, it doesn't mean that it is not an APBT. If it was not bred to be game it isn't an APBT. Two completely different things. It all depends on why the dog was bred.
That is the point of Amstaffs. They were bred for things other than gameness.

Genetic Lineage, breeding, and blood lines do not make the breed. If that were the case, there wouldn't be no such thing as Amstaffs as they came from the same ancestry.

 

Do you believe what you just typed? Genetics must be in a constant state of confusion. So from your game bred and game tested dogs you get game bred pups, one pup grows up and curs, this APBT is now an Amstaff. WHAT? It may be cur but it is still APBT, it may not pass all the test, it may be cur, maybe you will cull it, but it is still APBT.