Which dogs created the APBT?

So you would say its safe to say there was no Mastiff blood in these dogs untill the RE/Gotti stuff came about? Or would you say that it happened before this new creation?

 

ooopsssssssssss.....Please delete.

 

I think thats quite foolish to say and the idea of dogs being a pure bred thing until rather recently is foolish as well.

Apbt is a medium to large size dog (25-75 pounds) that has the physical
talents of a large dog (bulldog) yet acts and is aggressive like a
terrier.

Seems like your mixing the history of the Alaunt(sp?) with some Bulldog history and your time line is all wrong.

Alaunts where asian bred mastiff types who while effective fighters
where uncontrollable and hander aggressive (think big athletic chow
chow). Yea they where imported to Rome and did make a splash but they
where not small dogs. Now this is thousands of years before the bulldog
though.

Bulldogs are bred down mastiffs and everything I've ever read supports
this from descriptions of their temperaments to physical descriptions.
Now define breeding down, does that mean mixing with smaller dogs (much
quicker) or does that mean breeding the smallest to the smallest for a
long period of time till you get something pretty darn small in
comparison?

 

APBTs are a mix of dogs. We all know that. I am trying to see where the size came from. It was not untill recently that you consistently see dogs that are larger than the standard. Which from every site I've see is b/t 20-60 lbs max.

APBTs are a medium sized breed. They are not supposed to be large. This is where the Mastiff question came about. Recently a friend of my boyfriend was trying to get me to breed my new game bred pup to his 100 lb RE/Gotti dog. I told him 100lb was to large for my standards as well as ADBA. He told me that the Mastiff in him is why he is so big. (This dog is ADBA registered)

Hence my foolish question. When was Mastiff added in the blood? Was it there a long time ago or not untill the bigger and better fad took over?

 

Lots of people are mixing mastiff in now and hanging papers but thats not to say your boyfriends dog is one of them, although it's likely. I'm assuming he's a 100 pounds fat any idea what his real weight would be? If it's around 80 he could just be a badly bred RE, from just breeding the biggest to the biggest. It's when you have conditioned dogs at 95-110 pounds when I start saying lots of something else in that dog.

Oh and don't breed that mut.

 

My boyfriend does not own one of those mutts. His friend does and IMO most RE dogs are mixed. 80 lbs is still way out of standard. The original bulldogs weighed less than 30 lbs and terriers are smaller dogs too. I would not own a dog over 65 lbs.

As time goes by this breed is just getting larger. My ideal APBT would weigh 35lbs. I am stunned when I see such a powerful dog in small package.

With game testing being illegal; the majority of people are breeding untested dogs. Gameness is no longer the primary quality being bred for and I am afraid eventually we will lose this quality in our dogs or the majority of them, b/c there are people that will continue to do right by these dogs.

I am also afraid eventually these dogs will be a large breed. With people like you considering 80-100lbs ideal weight. This is what uneducated people are breed for. This IMO is destroying our breed. These large dogs of today could not accomplish the tasks that the small dogs of yesteryear were expected to perform. This is a working breed and there small size was an advantage. This big dog fad is ruining the working concept this breed is infamous for.

 

Gameness is still a trait that is widely being bred into these dogs, and throughout history there have been a good many accomplished APBT's that were (and are) on the larger side (high 60's-70's).

 

Ive always wodnered what type of dogs would come out if APBT are bred with ToSa InU imagine the gameness of these dogs :O

 

I just found this pic. It says its a game bred American Bulldog.

 

Bulldog from the 1800s.

 

Blue Paul

 

"The first dogs to arrive in the United States with the English immigrants in the mid-19th century were the Blue Paul Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier."

There is only one known account of an alleged Blue Paul (or Blue Poll) in America, and that was from a story by Thomson Gray about a Brooklyn Fire Department mascot named Jock. The term "Blue Paul/Blue Poll," by all accounts, seems to have been a generic term used predominately in 19th century Scotland to describe blue-colored bull and terrier dogs.

 

APBTs are the old time bulldogs. I think it's impossible to know what exact breeds were involved since there were types and strains back then and not established breeds.

If you want to know what I think beyond bulldogs, I agree with the theory in this article... http://www.moloss.com/001/ori/hnp/hele.html Very interesting read, if you have the time.

 

Are you kidding me? Tosas aren't game in the least! At least none of the ones Ive seen. When they get tired they stop fighting... thats not gameness.

 

No mixing at all. Tosas, Pressa canarios, Neos, Dogos, Bordeux, American-Bulldogs, and so on and so on all this breeds are NOT thoroughbreds like for example the Arabic-Horse or the old Aseel ( game flowl). All this big mastiff-like dogs have Bulldogblood, in other words they get a shot thoroughbred but they are mix mutts. Every dog-breed that shows some game and is able to catch and a talented fighter has Bulldogblood some get it1977 others1734 or 1569 but once they get it from the pure stuff. Now what distinguishes a thoroughbred from other kind of domesticated animals? 1.) The thoroughbred is at least in one thing unsurpassably and all other overriding.2.) Parallel to this superiority (achieved by hard selection) runs nearly always multitalente disposition. 3.) Real thoroughbreds are always very very old at least 1000 years but most times much older. 4. Thoroughbreds are always very useful with create of new races. 5.) If you delete the special genetic task that once and all the time create the thoroughbred it will vanish. 6.) If it vanished its gone. Only his genetic task and a few thousand years of time could bring it back. Believe me, Ceasar had the best, biggest and baddest mastiffs from all over the world for his own pleasure. They fought against all kind of big-game from lions to bears and what him most surprised was that the english dogs were NOT as big and they looked funny compared to his war-dogs and nevertheless they wiped his dogs. One of many Gameness demonstrations in thousand of years....

 

You got a source for that? I'd like to learn more

 

I'll add something here. IMO the American Bulldog came FROM the Pitbulldog. I often wonder if some of the old Komenski blood (big, all white) didn't share some common ancestors with the dogs that became AmBulls. But AmBulls sure seem to me to be a created breed.

 

What? I'm not enough of a legitimate source for ya?


Fred Morris article in The Illustrated Kennel News, Dec 15, 1906.

Thomson Gray's The Dogs of Scotland.

1906 writings of James Garrow.

Meyrick's book, House Dogs and Sporting Dogs, 1861.

Robert Fulton article in The Scottish Fancier and Rural Gazette, June 1886.

Wayfarer article in The Scottish Fancier and Rural Gazette, October 1886.

Dr. Vardum Mott's The Boston Terrier, 1906.


That should give you enough to start with

 

Lol when did I say that? All I suggested was that it's possible that mastiff was not bred into that dog. While it might sound crazy to you but there are and where some very game 50-75 pound bulldogs in the past, I think you need to read up. Hell colby's pincher was 75.

 

The fastest long distance runners on earth are dogs. Yep a common mix-mutt breed (Alaskan Huskies) are the best performers so much so that 99% of other dogs can't compete. What allows these dogs to perform this task while dragging a sled in below freezing temperatures? Drive and Physical attributes. Despite common myths such as using wolf-hybrids or bigger is better, the dogs can not be over 60 pounds because they are not able to cool their brains and sustain muscle function over such long and physically demanding tasks. Basically if a dog can not take in enough oxygen to supply his muscles for the activity his muscles will give out much quicker. Alright so you have dogs that are the right size? check. Now are they willing to follow the lead dog and maintain his pace with out quiting? Gameness (as bulldog owners like to call it). Now physical attributes come into play the dogs must be able to run in a certain pattern and must have long legs and a long body. Now once you get everything into place you have highly competitive animals that surpass every other mammal on earth at that task. Thoroughbred as you described it? Not a chance.

I believe that the APBT is the same exact case just for another venue. There the right size, they have the right drive and they possess the right physical talents. They have nothing that isn't re-obtainable with the proper work.

Fact is the natural dog aka the village dog aka the ancestor of all dogs before humans started fucking around with their breeding through artificial selection is 30-35 pounds. Just big enough cover the proper amount of space effectively (their territory) and just small enough to live on a relatively poor diet (human waste).

The Mastiff and the terrier are both freak animals that nature could never sustain and dogs as animals where never built to be these sizes.

Also to anyone who owns a dog I recommend you read this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-Startling-Understanding-Behavior-Evolution/dp/0684855305/sr=8-1/qid=1172027177/ref=sr_1_1/104-2316642-3995143?ie=UTF8&s=books