Which dogs created the APBT?

what the f@#& are you talking about pal??rooster wasnt talking about my dogs personally,he was talking about all pitbulls or apbts whatever,an im disagreeing with him.Outting myself ??? nah,you got the wrong man there dude,an your right on 2 things,your wrong again and it aint the first time.

 

The Flat nose comes from cross breeding bulldogs to Chinese Pai dog - a brachycephalous dog - original bulldogs descending from the ancien Allaunt had a Scott Ambull or APBT style nose, maybe a bit flatter but not with this brachycephalous jaws.

 

no APBT blood in American Bulldog, just rumours for one type, the Painter/Margentina type...

read : http://www.bulldoginformation.com/american-bulldog-types.html

 

Match an APBT to a Kengal Turkish Shepherd. It was done already, filmed and documented...The Kengal wins all!!! Sorry I do love Pitbulls but I won't even match a Presa Canario to a Kengal. The bulldogs that were bullbaiting were huge heavy but quick dogs that were working at least in pairs, but most of the time in packs (it has been well documented too!!) so a small bulldog bringing a big mastiff down...yeah romance it is, nothing more.

 

Huge heavy but quick,hmmmm,and this taken from google-It shows a Turkish shepherd accompanied by a
Kangal-type dog with the typical Spike collar the dogs
wear for protection and close cropped ears............typical spiked collar,somebody realised theres a weak point then..

 

that is right I was talking about APBT in general. I don't know bandog billy but I'd guess from his location etc that he has some very decent dogs indeed. As most people that still have these dogs in those locations usually have dogs fit for the business. You said you were from Blue Paul country, that would be from the highlands.

Anyway Bandog Billy I see you are interested in discussing this. So what is your take on the history of the APBT. Maybe you say what you think and I will clarify what I think about it. My view is NOT static and is evolving with this discussion and other discussions on the internet. Personally I doubt very much that there isn't any terrier blood in the APBT of the United States. Can you expand what you were saying about Dalmations ?

 

Caucasian Shepherds have got an even better fight record than Kangals do.
You are right however as the fights are not pound for pound and the APBT usually lose. The fights are also under country rules and not cajun rules. These dogs (kangals, CSD) etc are not "game dogs" but are "fighting" dogs. They are no way as game as the "bull and terrier" family, but yeah with no weight restrictions they generally beat smaller APBT, yes correct. The thing that is surprising however is how well the APBT sometimes do, sometimes when even going 20 to 50 pounds uphill. The fights are unfair but you are right the Kangal's etc usually win.

but that is going off topic and probably not the right topic for the forum, I would guess

 

rooster,i in no way intended to disrespect or annoy you or piss you off,im not here for that.Undoubtedly you know what your talking about and you have by far the best/most interesting information on this site.Not for 1 second am i saying theres no terrier in pitbulls,what im saying is,there aint no staffordshire in pitbulls,pitbull in staffies without a doubt yes,but not the other way round.In days of yore (id be a fool to put a date/time frame)pitbulls were "invented" as human protection,by the working classes,as they were needed man,they werent called the dark ages for nothing.Whateverthem origanal breedings were,who knows,but you only have to look at a dalmation or dalmation pups to see for yourself what im talking about(try google images)man its undeniable.Also,im cheating a wee bit,long time ago,when i got my first pit,an old dogman told me about the dalmation(an this guy was much like yourself,deserves listening to)an i still 100% accept what he said.And like yourself mate,my opinions not static either,but some of the information on here is so way off target man,that i cant beleive what im reading(not talking about you here).I hope that from my private message to you,im a genuine guy,if im wrong about anything,i,ll be the first to admit it.Ive no agenda,nothing,i only wanna come on here and talk about pitbulls and look at photos/stories about pitbulls ,nothing else. And nope,im in the lowlands,just right next to the highlands though

 

1 other thing,reading somewhere one of the posts about the bsl /peta or whatever it was,the spokeswoman went on to talk about pitbulls and their tenacity.Theres only one dog that can be talked about with regards to tenacity,again the dalmation.And the wee 44lbs bitch lying on my couch right now,a blind man could see the dalmation in her,her and her son.

 

So our history is wrong?

http://www.game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2482

http://www.game-dog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8788

Please tell me where we are wrong

 

There is evidence that bull baiting goes back to 1200 if not even earlier , those dogs had ancestors from the roman molasses dogs if you look at pictures of those dogs from the 1200’s many resemble APBT terriers of modern times and some appear to resemble the larger American Pit BullDog in either case there are pictures to be seen showing bull baiting dogs being throne in the air 12 feet up and the owners catching them I don’t believe these dogs were that excessive in weight after all how could some body catch a throne dog from a bull. 1835 the sport was out prohibited and continued to about 1841 considering how large a Bull is in the long run the butchers had to follow the law THAT'S at least 641 years of a breed of dog that was game WOW !! It has been noted the flesh of bulls which had these dogs put upon them was more tender and nutritious and hasten the need to cook meat sooner thus making it less likely to be rotten .
Now in the mean time during those middle ages pheasants non land owners in particular and farmer types were not aloud to own dogs unless the dog could walk through a 16 inch round hoop or have one back leg knee tendon cut .since any large dog was considered to be used for poaching on the rich gentries land , so very fast game small dogs were well in to creation these groups of dogs had smooth coats or wirier coats in all colors , black and tan - bottom line, they got the job done even though they were small they were also used in dog fighting Kerry blue , Irish terrier , Bedlington terrier , Manchester terrier ,English white terrier. and mix's of said dogs . Those dogs were already dual purpose dogs used for badger hunting vermin and dog sport . A person should have admiration for all these dogs as the mix of these dogs created APBT SBT and a handful of others . To this day that's why some Pits are more Bully and some Rangy .

 

Kerry blue's were nice dogs. Yes they were used for fighting until fairly recently as were the Wheaten terriers.

Great post. Do you know the source for the "Now in the mean time during those middle ages pheasants non land owners in particular and farmer types were not aloud to own dogs unless the dog could walk through a 16 inch round hoop or have one back leg knee tendon cut "

part. Or at least where did that information come from ? Thanks

 

Had to have been either A Stratton book or DR. Carl Semencic it also it might have been a 15 or 18 inch hoop , the concept was it forced people to create a very strong small dog that had talents out of proportion for there size. and still be aloud to keep them.

 

Your joking marty eh ???av not read the other rep[lies,shall respond to you first marty.Hey,i,ll tell you where your wrong,you posted part 2 twice buddy!!We,ll just deal with 1 ppart of part 2 first marty boy.If as you say, you cant have a true pit at 80lbs,you then cant have a true pit at 40lbs no??? agree upon this and we talk some more,you dont i dont.

 

pit#5 says -It has been noted the flesh of bulls which had these dogs put upon them was more tender and nutritious and hasten the need to cook meat sooner thus making it less likely to be rotten . bandog billy replies...what,do you think these people were fuckin stupid,d,yall not think they maybe knew HOW to look after fresh meat.If your talking about 1200 in the uk,a dont even think there was cattle in the uk then buddy,no sure tho i could check. tra lalalala,whats wrong with you buddy,you dont even give dalmations a mention,whats wrong,does that not fit into your opinion,cos that all you got mate,an opinion.And like a said buddy,human protection,cos it was needed in the timeframe your talking about..

 

There was no farmers as such mate,and you say==the concept was it forced people to create a very strong small dog that had talents out of proportion for there size. and still be aloud to keep them. Oh yeah,the stupid landowner would never have worked that one out eh ??:rolleyes:

 

Reference to Bandog Billy

All those statements are what I have read and bottom line bull baiting did happen there are old period painting of such and when I say farmers I use it loosely , some of those people had lost there land and worked there land for others crops like patios cabbage other type of cold climate crops were grown.
Wile not all laws were enforceable I did read about the hoop thing , if it did occur .and if it occurred enough then certainly that could have caused a talented individual to create a dog to fool the system ,
In reference to Dalmatians I never did much research but any one can see a connection , in structure and they have endurance , but even black and tan dogs show up from time to time how come Dalmatians don't show up in pit litters I feel that Pits are truly a raw dominant trait type dog . Most mutts very often you have to analyze is that a Lab or a Rotti Border Collie or this or that , Buddy put a Pit as one of the parents and you can see it and those pups if you breed back to Pits soon are absorbed just as a Dalmatian would be absorbed . There are many old painting s to be found on internet that show dogs that look like modern Pits , I've seen the picture of the butcher dog handlers holding dogs that looked like Pits in size and structure The Pit is a dominant trait type dog and small to large exist SBT APBT to Pit Bulldogs
Dalmatians are not a dominant trait type dog , other wise you would have a bunch of spotted dogs running about, Dalmatian are responsible for some thing but they have been absorbed by the most amazing dog ever created hundreds of years ago we call it APBT for now, but its been here very long the blood lines of APBTs are a sponge and will take all dog blood lines into the fray.

 

#5,IF your talking about pitbulls here -(Dalmatians are not a dominant trait type dog , other wise you would have a bunch of spotted dogs running about,) man theres plenty spotted dogs running about.Man,the rescue centres over this way are always full of white/spotted pits,the clowns think theyre staffies.I personally beleive that wannabee thugs think that white pits aint "hard enough"looking,do you know what im saying. And going back to you saying this - how come Dalmatians don't show up in pit litters--your 100% wrong mate

 

Fact is that in the 18th century (1700's) there were 100's of breeds / strains that were bred for the pit. Each breed having a different source of origin some "pure" "bulldog" some even "pure" terrier type. These breeds were coined staffs by the general public, even when the fighting breeds were imported here they had not been crossed with each other and were different breeds into there own type/strain...

The Modern Pit dogs of today do not have a single source of origin. But a blend of all the imported pitdogs from over seas thus in the great melting pot of america all strains and breeds were merged from the best fighter bred to the best fighter to where we are at and what we have today. Lines are still being crossed and blended for the health and preservation of the modern breed we have had but a few hundred years. Some of the fighting breeds in the 1800's did trace back to the "killer hounds" that can be traced back to the 1200's SOME of the fighting breeds were of pure bulldog and Some a cross of god only knows. Back then type was bred to type but kept separate from the other guys dogs, thus resulting into the 100's of strains scattered thru great Britain, parts of france and spain up until the late 1800's when they came here and got into the hands of men like Lloyd, Colby, and The Gas House, then men like Tudor and Feely took them to the next level up to the 50's where the lines really came together from 3 main strains, and gave birth to the modern pit dogs of today.

 

I think RedC got it down true I’ll add a concept
when I mix Cans of miss tint paints like Red Yellow Blue and such just put it all together , I always get a muddy color now if I used really low cost paint I have a bad quality muddy color . But if I used very expenses paints I have the same mud color but it is a incredibly good quality paint . I think its easy to get caught up on looks all the time. who has spots big head white black . I've seen puppies that were 50 percent Dalmatian one side other was Shepard mix to APBT the puppies really looked like pits did that make them APBT’s ? NO - but the pups had that melting pot look I’m sure some of those pups I just mentioned will go on and breed to other dogs haphazardly creating a muddy looking pit type dog. the real APBT are a incredible dog distilled from the strongest best of the best wile so many are awesome to look at , full of power and a look of force still many look like mutts but they are not ,
they are the “ incredibly good quality paint “