why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

when you see one swallow it thusend mean its summer. in other words, there are plenty of ""historical""(fwiw) eczamples that blaim claim and ore say the oposit . its all hearsay and ore asumptions. i dont think the Romans would wright douwn on there pressius papirus rolls and ore clay tablets that the dogs they came across where amazing!!. and iven if so how many others would not agree and difer from opiniun .. its speculation...
Fact is the Saforchire bull terrier today is a weak jerk of of the origenal bull and terrier witch today is known as the American pit bull terrier...... and hasend changed that mutch . the origenal ugly undershot hairy bully type of bull and terrier dog in at times only a couple of INBREEDINGS away!!!!!!!!!!. befor he shows his aintient ugly face.....

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

That is your opinion and i do not have any problem with that !? The article with the BPD was very interesting and it was reprinted in the AGDT.

As I have said before LK your probably a damn good chap and you have a lot of knowledge.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

unlike yourself.....lol

go read a website and wonder on what gameness is.....lol. plenty of ambull sites to keep you occupied. lets see how long it takes to fcuk up that breed by running your breeding program.

You should learn to walk before you can run.

chief

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Well gameness is something you will never have you rank little cur.

Run a long and play LITTLE BOY.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

I still don't know what 99jakc is trying to say ? my opinion is there is very little (may be no terrier) in the APBT, judging from old print made at the time of bull/bear baiting the APBT looks identical to bulldogs... not the show breed ..short thick set things with pug blood, but the bulldog used for sport, if you look at the prints of bull baiting done at the time.. the bulldog, had in general long legs ,normal strong muzzles, straight tails..= to the APBT..if they had a breed that was athletic why would they cross them into a terrier.I still don't know what 99jakc is trying to say,,,can you explain ?...R

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

one theory for the bulldog terrier cross is that the origional sport bullgogs were said to have rather poor dentition , and the "sport" of matching dogs was a bloodsport , hence a cross into terriers to get better teeth. along with other things...

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

The original Bulldog was too slow and not able to get first hold and was beaten and replaced by bull n terrier.

It is very important for a dog to be quick and able to get first hold, is it not.

They said the original bulldog was not quick enough to get first hold against the bull n terrier types and even though he would keep going forward was not capable of getting a hold and suffered badly against that type.
The APBT would not and could not be that dog(bulldog) but is of the other.

The upturned jaw has been in the breed since the early days and did not come from the pug.
James Hinks although noted for his white bull terrier was an avid bulldogbreeder and showed in more than 80 shows and prefered his bulldogs in the 15-20 lb range.Hinks most famous Bulldog was Crib this Crib was called 'the cropped dog' and was out of Dogue de bordeaux and slut 1 who was a hair lipped sister to the famous king Dick. The Edgar Farman book has lots of photos of dogs from 1870-1890 showing REAL bulldogs and paintings of good bulldogs including Billy from 1820 like the bulldog of today long before the show type evolved. The 1870 book shows a bulldog not unlike that of a modern day johnsons bulldog but we know it cant be a johnsons because that breed is a modern one.
We need to remember the term bulldog was for any-type of dog used against the bull, and pitdog for any dog used in the pit.
When was the term 'American bull terrier' used officialy because as we all know the term Staffordshire bull terrier was first used in 1935 but the dogs in this first show photo were a mixed bunch some had the modern look some were piebald pits and some dark of all shapes and sizes but the dog chosen and the standard was taken from this dog JIM THE DANDY he was 21/2 yo at the time stood 17.5" at the shoulder skull was 17" around had a 15.5" neck 26.5" chest length of back was 16" tail was 9" long and weighed in at 33lbs in HARD condition.and was avery good staff and at that time his breeding could be traced back 3o years.
The height standard for the staffs changed from15-18" in 1935 to 14-16" in 1948
I think the main point in all the debate is the one in bold type

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

This all show dog book and people crap your quoting .... R

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

I could put a Ricky B style quote " this all pit dog book and people crap your quoting"

Okay i get it now.It does not matter what is brought to the table here if it does not fall in line with what you think(just a shame i could not get this in smaller case) it does not matter. You have no reasoning ability whatsoever. Your responses as above are well 'none too clever'. As said on other forums your dog knowledge or lack of it is well known !!.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

99jakc Ricky B is right these are the wrong eole and historians to quote. and bij the way james hinks was a known pupy peddler that crossed dogs of varius breeds all the time, and NO the first hold was is NOT as importend as those historians make you belive.
and no not every bull and terrier would win over a pure bulldog the majoretuy did . but as today plenty of people who prefeurd the bulldog typs over the terrier typs of those crossed breeds . there where plenty of breeders who crossed out with the terrier only to go straight back into the bulldog blood keeping a 3/4 bulldog 1/4 terrier line and visa versa same as TODAY !!!!. and wassend the first show ch STB joe mallens ch Gentelmans Jim.
the dogs chozen on the standards where good dogs HOWEVER over the cours of history the people who took over the SBT shows and clubs where forgetting where the SBT came from ..
the intire set up to reconize the breed and the club and the shows was supost to to be used as a BUFFER ZONE to show to the general publick that these dogs where ok and cool!!. behind the scenes the dogs where supost to be tested, and maintained!!!. history hase shown us that this didnt happend and the breed was lost... 99jakc AGAIN you are on the wrong SIDE of history!!!!!!...
PS the modern johnson bulldog is nothing more then a ordinary pit bull x uk buldog cross what we used to call a Banndog

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

cynographia britannica - sydenham teast edwards - THE BULLDOG - 1800.
in height about 18inches
in weight about 36lb

the staffordshire breed is the original & PILOT is the MOST DOMINANT male sire of the american strain from the BLACK COUNTRY..ENGLAND............LAND OF THE BULLDOG.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

go look at as many pictures as you can find of old dogs. Notice the diversity in the form you will be able to note from looking. After you are done, go see the thread on the different type of APBT's available today from different kennel clubs. Some do actually resemble the original dogs, some do not. Now concider the types being bred for their purpose for a couple hundred years. Do you honestly not see how these dogs can come in different sizes?

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Your looking at it upside down mate...i doubt they bred the terrier into the bulldog to improve the bull dog...but no doubt back in the day they bred bulldog into the terriers for the same reasons terrier men do today...and as i have said on here before back in the late 1700's a dog or cock pit was a common a sight in a pub as a pool table was in the 1970's...so no doubt any of the first cross bull and terriers that had the fire in em would of been tested in the box...and obviously those winning dogs that showed game would of been bred from...and there ya go...gamebred bull&terriers....at the end of the 1700's when matching dogs was at its most popular...and still almost legal...pictures from the westminister pit one of the most well known pits in its day... show game dogs which are small and terrier type...like staffords...next time you boys are in London stop for a pint in the Cockpit in St Pauls or the Lamb and flag in Covent Garden...tiny little pubs that both had cock and dog pits back in the day....with people living in cramped conditions back then prehaps they may have even preferd a smaller type of game dog...the picture of the bulldogs used for bull baiting if anything show dogs that look like Boxerdogs...where as the dogs taken over seas to the states by the likes of Charlie Lloyd and J.P Colby looked more like...Staffords.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Staffordshire Bullterrier is a name invented by the kennel club in the early 1930s...before that they ware the same dog as the APBT... and the fighting dogs in London , Leeds, Newcastle, Liverpool, in Scotland and Ireland ...the KC gave them that name ...and people now think they only came from that area, they created a myth... R

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Yeah...i know all that...and like i said the most famous pit in the world during the golden age of the game...was in... LONDON... not staffordshire and not Ireland either...i use the term 'Stafford' as a referance to a'Type'...im sure you will know well the type...as you recently put your name to a book full of this type of dog!...your saying the APBT of today is a direct decendent of the bull baiting bull dogs of old...im disagreeing...im saying there is (wether we like it or not) definatly a good splash of terrier blood in there somewhere along the line...and those early APBT where more Stafford in TYPE than pure original bulldog looking...get wot im saying?...

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Staff bull terriers are a modern show dog...before 1930s they ware all pit bulls no matter what part of the British isles they came from...when bullbaiting was practiced there ware no dogs in Britain that looked like a bulldog...they ware a made up dog...the dogs used for bull baiting was almost identical to APBTs...and when they went to the USA they became specialized for dog fighting...if there is terrier in them I think it must very little...

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

I mostly agree with the post above. specialy the part where they where ALL APBT befor 1930!!!!!. as they where STILL the same breed,
BUT as stated befor everyting and i mean everyting being crosses with a bulldog that would fight and was victorius was crossed together!!. thats where the divirsety of our breed comes from the BULLDOG was the GLEU that made it work!!!together..
its aint black and white im pretty sure that a desend nr of pure bulldogs would have beat a bull and terrier and visa versa. its rediculess to belive that only the terrier croses would shake and go back and forward. iven todays showbreed curs do that!!!!, fact is the crosses where BETER alround and over the intyer line!!!. and yes the eurly bullterrier was crossed in as wel . in them dyas the dog was known as the poor mans racing horse. probely 80% of the population could not read nor wright and never had a education , let alone had the sense and nolige to look behing the wins of there dogs and why they did win. they used best to best in them days. it was up to the priveliged few who found out and knew that with selectif breeding and line breeding they could get a good solid base , just like the greyhound and other breeds where bred!!!!!!. as for the ""dog pits"" in the pubs MOST of them where used for RAT pitting!! and cock fighting as those sports where NOT seen ore considerd as blood sports. who where banned in 1835!!!.
sure sosial control was at a bare minimum , so dogfighting was eze but not so mutch in publick display.. now when these dogs where taken over to the NEW contry the land op UPERTUNETIES. where there was no sutch thing as a law against blood sports. this breed was maintained and refinned over the cours of history. where there brothers on the british islands stayed behind and where bred to pieces as a show dog..
This is wat 99jakc and others cant seem to understand out of pride ore ignorense, that the showbreed side of the origenal dog the SBT and in the USA the AM staff have become weak jerkoffs of the origenal breed known today as the APBT.
the shear fact that this breed in NO LONGER known as the BULL and TERRIER, makes guys like him practis a deaf mute behaivier and stick there heads in the sand and refuse to acsept that the SBT is a direct disendense of the APBT former known as the bull and terrier..therefor making him a disendent of the APBT

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Load of rubbish! Do you think a bulldog would have been slow if it's job was to grab a bull by the nose knowing if it failed it could well be its last attempt

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Surely a simple DNA test would settle the terrier debate, I can't believe nobody as ever done it, especially researchers like Richard Stratton

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

1 tim post

I dunno but ive had dogs all my life. I ve seen the bigguns and the small uns come through here...arguin what one was the best is irrelevant..we ALL kno tht i dont care where you live what your country started, where they had pits, how many folks had to pile in a boxx match or what eva else ya wanna argue...and for people that are "breeders" of pure this and pure that....great!

I have looked at the old photos and even some old old publications and I have yet to see anything than what they look like now...no change of the physical appearance. The old photos look exactly, even to the same color scheme. Now here s the Kicker, NOT A SINGLE DOG I HAVE EVER HAD HAS EVER HAD A SINGLE REGISTRY PAPER ON IT!!

To me, that says ALOT about this pissin match! A SQUARE HEADED, 50 lb. TIGHT MADE, CAT FOOTED, SUPER QUICK READY FO WHATEVA SHAKES DOWN AT ALL TIMES APBT IS EXACTLY WHT THIS CUNTRY IS.....A BETTA VERSION!!!

Oh, and I bet when god made the first one it looked just like they do now also...so please take them huge piggy doggys to your nearest petco for a new spike colla to look tough....we re good...we got the respect...

Sincerely,
BlitZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ