why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Now I think it´s time to join the thread as I just watching it a little bemused!

As for the Staffordshire Bullterrier, hell, the people arround Joe Dunn and Joe Mallen formed a club, wrote a standard and strived to get them KC recognized!
As these all have been people from the Staffordshire Country and the name Bullterrier already existed and have been recognized by the KC they gave him the name Staffordshire Bullterrier, quite and simple!

That these type of dogs have been widespread in England / Wales / Scotland / Ireland is a given fact!

Also the fact is that these dogs are build to perform, may someone crossed some different breeds in, due to selective breeding and breeding to what was able to get the job done, it shouldn´t bother anyone!

These Pitdogs have been the material the American Pit Bullterrier originated from!

It doesn´t lower the fact if the UKC has registered them earlier than the name Staffordshire Bullterrier was established!

The Pitdogs from the UK have been the source of the modern APBT, or better APBT, Am Staf and StaffBull are just three variations of the dogs of the past!

As they all have been selected differently they aren´t the same breed anymore but do share the same roots!

As for looks.......

Well each line has it´s certain characteristics and looks so you really have to wonder why there has been an evolution lookwise?????
Me not!

Same happens to showbreeds!

As many breed standards haven´t been changed since they have been written down the first time there is still no confirmity in looks as they all differ slightly but more than often overdone trademarks just compare the EBT from the 1970´s and the dogs of today! Look at the Neapolitan Mastiff from the 1970´s and those of today etc.

Could it happen that they crossed SBT (after KC recognition) or EBT into game APBT stock?

Why not? Maurice Carver for example sure as hell had some AST(from his good friend Peggy Harper) in his dogs aswell as others might have crossed in EBT.
Who cares? It´s all history and doesn´t affect the dogs of today!

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Who cares? It´s all history and doesn´t affect the dogs of today!

That was the headache i was on about !

Thnx for the antiques Limey, still nice to see.

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Hi, I thought I don't post on public boards anymore ... well, here I am. I just wanna throw some oil to the fire.
The history about our dogs is very confusing, to say at least. And if you dig deep enough you'll come to a point where it doesn't make sense anymore. Trying to get it for over 20 yrs and it still sucks. Read a lot of stuff many times i.e. Wayne's History book close to a hundred times. And still a couple of things are not making sense yet.
One half of the dogmen say the APBT is a pure Bull breed. The other half claims them to be Bull Dog x Terrier (in different ways, not just from 1 breeding).
Isn't there a third possible way ?
I hope I.M., c2k and those are still on here. but they are not jumping in, so they're probably not. Wake up guys !
Ok. So what are the facts ? What's fable ?
I believe lots of information through the last 100 yrs can be seen as facts. Facts which are written down in books. Let's start with the Colby family.
Joseph L. Colby's first words in his book 'The American Pit Bull Terrier':
-page 14 / Origin of the APBT:
"The APBT was made from the Bulldog and the Old English White Terrier."

And about J.P. Colby on page 57:
"He has bred, raised and sold more game dogs than any one man in America. This record is one to be proud of and apparently has no equal. Mr.Colby has shipped dogs to all parts of the world and has found a good market for them in Mexico, where dog fighting is a prominent Sport. Besides raising dogs, he has developed a strain of dead game fowl and raises hundreds of them each year."

'Colby's Book of the APBT' by Louis B. Colby
-page 9 / Introduction:
"... John P. Colby bred and sold more Pit Bull Terrier than any other man, about 5.000 dogs."

Ok. Doesn't sound much like the Irish Old Family style, but let's take a look.

-page 15:
"John P. Colby was born January 15, 1875. Many books claim he was Irish, but this is due more to misinformation concerning his special love for Irish-bred dogs then to the reality of his lineage. He was in fact Welsh and his paternal grandsire came directly to America from Wales."

!!!

-page 25:
"The dogs upon which J.P. based his line were animals brought from England, Ireland, and Wales to America by Immigrants ...
...This was the kind of genetic material that J.P. needed, and he found it in the English and Irish dogs. J.P. was of Welsh descent, yet he admired the Irish dogs the most, and kept a constant eye out for newly arrived Irish dogs."

Ok, up to this point we can see that J.P. Colby was a Welsh peddler who did many scatter breedings.
Just facts !

And for now the last interesting quote from the Colby book.
-page 27 / Charlie Lloyd's Pilot:
"Pilot was bred by John Holden, of the Red Lion Inn, Parkstreet, Walsall, in England. His sire was Small's Billy, and he came from a long line of famous fighting dogs. ... Looking at the picture of Pilot, it is apparent that at that point in time the Pit Bull and the English 'Staffordshire Bull' were one and the same thing."

Now it's up to you what you wanna read here. Read the lines or read inbetween the lines. Or do both. It's up to you people.
I have saved a lot for later talks. But first let's see if it makes any sense talking history here.
And to all people. I apologize for everything I ever write on here ! Sorry !
And btw. Limey, do you think the Old Henry dogs are coming down from the Scottish Blue Paul ? Just curios.

And Fonzie, please, keep out !

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Hey Limey!...you know that Cockney Charlie Lloyds Pilot was bred in the Red Lion pub Wallsal...which at the time was in the county of....Staffordshire!...but you knew that right?...a staffordshire bred dog owned by a cockney!...200years later turns into an irish import

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Ooops sorry stickler didnt see your post ...just to add the top Game dog in 1806 who was well documented and recorded was the dog 'trusty' owned by the boxer Jem Belcher this dog was also bred in...Staffordshire!...ha ha i guess the KC must have made that breed name up by randomly shoving a pin in a map eh?...and if we are to belive mr Ricky B's theory on the history of the breed...why the hell have we been refering the dogs pit/bull and terriers if there was never any TERRIER in them...think about it!

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

I do think it´s more linked to the variety of uses!

Like the name shepherd dog implies it´s certainly not a hunting dog!

Therefor it goes like this:

Pit = dogfighting, Bull= Bullbaiting, Terrier= Hunting on various stuff from badgers to foxes to rats etc.

More than often the most simple answer is the one that fits the truth more than any made up theory!

I do think there have been crosses made, so it is the case actually within the Alano or other breeds like American Bulldog etc. (Yes!!!! John D. Johnson did breed to other breeds!) but we all can´t tell what an impact it made on the dogs today! I do believe these Terriers and other breeds have been mainly used to create the English Bullterrier and as this dog was propagated over and over all the followers mixed things up a little!

And Stickler!
Your Excuse is granted!LOL!!!!!!!!

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

One thing is for sure the breed is the purest combat dog outhere, nobody is sure of the breeds history and the debate will live on

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

One thing is for sure, this topic sure got some feathers ruffled!

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

out of curiosity what year and which pitdog was the 1st one to be given the name apbt? certainly they didnt call it american while in England and/or Ireland or did i misunderstand some threads?

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

interesting to see that reg'd blue dogs were around, used and bred at the begining of the century, wondering why some think is a new thing

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

There are parts of the country over there known for great cheese, wonder if they call it American cheese. LOL

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Stickler as said befor there are no absolutes .And yes with all the historicel books written bij varius man with there upinions can ofset people in what they think is the truth ore history of this breed , But indeed when reading in between the lines and obsirving and working the breed for 3 decades i can come to one conclusion only, and that is that the APBT is a mixure of bulldog x terrier and every dogbreed that was crossed with the bulldog that fought and won!! ore was good enoughf to breed from.

The APBT standard ""alouws"" all the varius predesesers to come out!!. and with that i meanThe varius dog breeds crossed with the bulldog back in the day.
The viriety in shape and sizes and coloration show this!!. in contrary with SHOW breeds like the SBT where coloration and diferend typs are not acsepted you are reducing the gene pool witch on itself is not a bad thing but it IZ when you just breed them for show ore confermation dogs..

People who are claiming they(apbt) are bulldogs only ,are way of base as are the people who belive they are staforchire bull terriers!!.
The bull and terrier (ore apbt) wassend a UNIFORM NAME like the BULLTERRIER ore STAFORDCHIRE BULL TERRIER.
It thuse means that the Bull and Terrier was a cross of dogs!!!! mainly terrier blood but also everyting in between!.
and in most casses the poor mans working horse. who didnt give a rats ass how the dog was bred ore lookt, as long as he brought the bacon home in a time where 3 out of 8 kids died befor they where 10 years old!!

As for Loyds Pilot i need to dig DEEPER to find the other 2 pedegrees. his pedegree was NOT compleet he might have been bred in the uk but if my memory sirfs me wel i could swear he was from irish blood!!!.(you seen his daughter being called Irish Molly).

As for earl tudors Henry dogs the confusion is this!.
The henry blood claimed bij one groop where the eurly dogs he had like black jack , only these dogs where NOT black, but where named afther the card game!! Now Danny Burton claimed that earls faforite dogs where the henry dogs.
They where mainly black dog with red eyes and craze to fight!!.
And nobody knew where they came from!!! (read the pelican brief).

The most intrieging thing is""and this wil please the uk staford fansiers"" that Scotty nelson stayd at the house of my mentors at the time(eurly 80,s) in the uk for 3 monds, and he told them that earl tudor imported dogs from the uk uptill the late 40,s early 50,s!!!.

nou let me base a teory here. SBT are ore come a lot in BLACK ore black brindle, they tent to have a HARDER mouth then the averich APBT they cant keep there hold long!! they lack gameness but can barnstorm a lot due to there build""sounds familier"" earl tudor all of a sudden got Black dogs out of his red and white dibo colby strain..
dogs like Pit General ,zebo, alligator, Eli, and other dogs ecetera popt up in a time span of what 10/15 years, non of them are realy asosiated as being GAME dogs but more of the barn storming hard mouthed dogs!!.""with the ecseption of the alligator stain""..

we all know that eli and zebo dogs have a mutch lower% in gamenes then most other bloodlines unless crossed!!!. into Snooty alligator and those lines who where known for gamennes!!.
Maurish carver ones said to G Hammonds you should breed those Alligator dogs to those Bullsyson dogs you ""might"" loose some gamennes over it But the sons of bitches will probely never have to PROOVE it!!
earl was askt ones and this is a known fraze up till today . that the dog he was betting on DIDNT LOOK GAME.
his awnser was im not betting on that dog being game i am betting on him WINNING.. all coinsedenses?? i know how to read between the lines. they are not facts only sircomstansif wel coincidences . i dont know you tell me.....

To me the fact is that the APBT IS the purest fighting dog in the world
diferend strains from diferend bull and terrier bloodlines from the UK islands where brought over to the usa in a time where transport was very limited iven befor the industrial revolution from a time where there where not iven trains ore steamboats ecetera.
the world back then was a mutch bigger place then today.
Varius strains of bull and terrier dogs would have never met ore very sporeticly isolating the varius famelies including the staforchire and the other strains..

Remember now the Bull and Terrier was NOT a uniform BREED and it was this Breed that was brought over and these dogs where used to proove the truths in them.
And al these varius starins where fought bred together!! in the usa where the world afther time became a smaller place.

Is there SBT blood in them yes!!, is there bullterrier blood in them yes!. BUT the gross of this breed IS the Bull and terrier breed. But the SBT and the Bullterrier who where crossed in where and are compleatly ubsorbt bij the origenal breed they orginated from.
The bullterrier and Stafortchire bull terrier are ""desendance"" of this breed the NON uniform dog breed known as the BUll and terrier. witch CLEARLY SHOWS in the APBT.
as these dogs in contrary to the SBT and the Bullterrier, are ore were NOT SHOW dogs.
but dogs who where bred and judged upun there abilety to fight and work......... thats how i belive this cooky crumbles

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

ps consirning the Blue paul dog here is a articel from the your frind and mine taken from a book(english book)

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In retrospect to the blue paul and the Henry(black Jack dogs) dogs They are more freakwent in the AM stafs tru the Ruffian line witch is mostly bassed on the tacoma jack bloodline witch is from black jack dogs.
the blue coloration is mutch more presented in the am staff being it that sins the last couple of decades there is specificly bred for this coloration bij many.

the articel clearly shows that the dogs where supost to have come from another place and NOT from the UK islands and where BIGGER then the read this ""Staforchire TERRIER......... from the black country no talk about the staforchire BULL terrier.... this shows that the Bull and terrier ore pitbull terrier was made up out of varius breeds ..

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

It's strange that the bulldog looking black pitbulls were barnstormers that lacked gameness, that shoots down the theory that the original bulldog brought the gameness to the bull and terrier cross. Good write up Limey and very plausible

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

thanks damon. it thussend realy!!!.
it thuse say that(if the teory would be fackt!!) the SBT and these typ of pitbull terriers have more other traights to rely on!! to be sucsesfull.
As said befor not all that is written in stone and should not be lookt and judged upon as black and wite.
Not EVERY Bulldog was GAME in those days.
. We have plenty of GAME terriers today as there where yesterday that pound for pound is and can be toughfer then some pitbull terriers. like the ""Patterdale terrier!!"". I know a man who hase bred them so game he hase to breed cur blood back into them ,as they dont back up in the Badger ore fox den!!.
and take to mutch damage!!!!, and ruin themselfs!!.

Also in varius books, like in the Stonehenge of the dogs and the piece from that book that i put on this topic early on it clearly states that the Bull and terrier cross would out class both bulldog and terrier breed they came from!!!!... this means they BOTH aded to make a superior dog.
Terriers bring lots of gamennes along with them from there own!, sure the book also sais and claims that many a terrier strain carries bulldog blood.but thats one mans upinion as wel.
the word terrier comes from terra with means earth. so we talk about dogs that whent to earth .
meaning they needed a desend amound of gamennes and durabilety to battle it out ""in the lions den"" on there own against there uponends in the deep dark holles in the ground....

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

Nuttal bred patterdales were bred to be fox dogs as they were generally too hard to be badger dogs, my old terrier who was born in the late 80's was the gamest dog I've seen. Brian nuttal had the dogs what is grandad bred and IMO they are related to the pitbull somewhere along the lines

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

here ya go!!!

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

What do you mean by that? Ha

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

conferming wat you just said!!. that some terrier spiecies are as game as any..

 

Re: why don't apbt look like the dogs that first came over from england & ireland

CORECTIONeople who are claiming they(apbt) are bulldogs only ,are way of base as are the people who belive they are staforchire bull terriers!!.
The bull and terrier (ore apbt) wassend a UNIFORM NAME like the BULLTERRIER ore STAFORDCHIRE BULL TERRIER.
It thuse means that the Bull and Terrier was a cross of dogs!!!! mainly terrier blood but also everyting in between!.:

Mainly Terrier blood means that the terrier was MAINLY used as the cross with the bulldog..umongst other breeds.